[eagles123]

this is something that seems to differ massively between teachers, textbooks etc. one week I seem to be told one thing, another week, something else!

my question is playing ACOL Weak NT, you have 12-14 points and balanced but 5 cards in one of the majors i.e. 5332 or 2533 something like that. when should you open the Major and when should you open 1NT

[Cyberyeti]

I voted always open 1N, if the whole hand is in the major and I'm prepared to claim 6 of them, I might open the major on AKQJx, xxx, xxx, Qx but AKJ10x, Kxx, Jxx, xx is 1N.

[CamHenry]

I'm with Cyberyeti on this one.

On the other hand, I quite like weak 1NT with 4-card majors: the advantage there is that you always have either extra strength (e.g. 15+) or extra shape (5-4, or sometimes 4-4-4-1) to open a suit. It seems to me that playing 5-card majors loses a significant advantage of the weak NT.

[eagles123]

CamHenry, on 2013-June-18, 06:24, said:

I'm with Cyberyeti on this one.

On the other hand, I quite like weak 1NT with 4-card majors: the advantage there is that you always have either extra strength (e.g. 15+) or extra shape (5-4, or sometimes 4-4-4-1) to open a suit. It seems to me that playing 5-card majors loses a significant advantage of the weak NT.

sorry I Think my title might have been confusing, i'm not saying I play 5 card majors

I just mean when u play a weak nt and have a 5 card major as in 5332 12-14 range what should you bid

sorry if it was confusing

[Zelandakh]

There is just no right answer to this. As I wrote in the other recent thread, I have played many different styles, ranging from never opening 1NT with a 5 card major to always doing so with several shades of grey inbetween. It is simply a matter of style and agreement. If the question is for a generally popular approach then I would say that opening 1NT if the major is so poor that you do not want to rebid it is probably it (some older textbooks will talk about "rebiddable suits" here). That does not make it the best approach though.

[eagles123]

Zelandakh, on 2013-June-18, 06:31, said:

There is just no right answer to this. As I wrote in the other recent thread, I have played many different styles, ranging from never opening 1NT with a 5 card major to always doing so with several shades of grey inbetween. It is simply a matter of style and agreement. If the question is for a generally popular approach then I would say that opening 1NT if the major is so poor that you do not want to rebid it is probably it (some older textbooks will talk about "rebiddable suits" here). That does not make it the best approach though.

I'm after best approach rather than most popular if possible

[Codo]

There is no best approach... Play what fits your style and be fine with it.

You may ask what the best players do. In this case. Play strong NT, most of them prefer it, so if something is superior it should be the strong NT.

I switch to weak NT with 5 card majors regulary in them two years ago and I still like it...


@CamHenry: I am a five card major player, so which significant disadvantage do I suffer? All my 1 of a suit openings are either unbalanced or strong, so I have the same advantage as you have in your system...

[PhilKing]

Stats from the Pavlicek site lead me to conclude that you should open 1NT with hearts always, but open 1♠ unless ashamed of the suit. Clicky. http://www.rpbridge.net/rpme.htm The edge from adopting this strategy appears to be very large indeed, and Acol is flexible enough to do so without creating too many rebid problems.

I've a few theories to account for the stats, but in a nutshell, if you suit is hearts, you want to make it difficult for them to find spades, but with spades, you have the boss suit for competing partscore. A secondary reason for opening 1NT with five hearts in Acol is that you are a bit stuck after 1♥-1♠, but that is not an issue after opening 1♠.

[ahydra]

That's an interesting stat! And yes Phil I think your reasoning is correct.

Playing with my brother a few years back we used to open 1NT with all 5332 and play 5-card Stayman after 1NT, which worked OK but does have the disadvantage of giving away info. There seems to be a modern trend towards playing 3C Puppet Stayman after 1NT (2C regular Stayman), I guess because if you have GF values then you're likely to make the contract anyway so giving opps info isn't as bad.

These days my partner and I have agreed "open 1NT with A10xxx or less in the major" but of course it also depends on the rest of the hand (primes vs quacks, cards in long suits vs short suits, etc).

ahydra

[1eyedjack]

I always open 1N
But I do believe that it is a closer decision when playing a weak 1N opener than when playing a strong 1N opener. In the latter case you are rather more stuck for a rebid if you don't open 1N, whereas the possible "lies" that you have to make by opening 1M in a weak 1N system are less extreme.

[MickyB]

ahydra, on 2013-June-18, 08:26, said:

There seems to be a modern trend towards playing 3C Puppet Stayman after 1NT (2C regular Stayman), I guess because if you have GF values then you're likely to make the contract anyway so giving opps info isn't as bad.

No, it's played partly because you'll often give away less information through puppet - e.g. 1N:3C, 3D:3H, 3N doesn't tell oppo whether opener has four hearts. I really dislike 1N:2C as five-card Stayman, there are a bunch of hands below GF values with interest in both majors that are difficult to handle without vanilla Stayman.

[TylerE]

I'm not sure I'd put quite as much stock in RP's numbers on this subject, for a couple of reasons. The big one is that they don't actually take into account what the bids mean, and in some cases these 1NT openings may have very non-standard meansings and/or negative inferences. Also, since he's looking exclusively at very high level events, that may overstate the difference at the club and local tournament level, and also doesn't take into account declarer and defender skill. There also might be selection bias going on - like his Flannery results for instance strongly favor Flannery - but don't look at the universe of 1M hands where the flannery pair can't open flannery.

[Zelandakh]

Which ones Mike? I will tell you what I do and you can tell me where the problem lies...

1NT - 2♣; 2♦ - 2NT = 4♥4♠, INV
1NT - 2NT = 5♠4♥, INV
1NT - 2♦; 2♥ - 2NT = 5♥4♠, INV
1NT - 2♥; 2♠ - 3♥ = 5♥5♠, INV
1NT - 2♣; 2♦ - 2♥ = INV+, not intersted in 4-4 heart fit
1NT - 2♣; 2♦ - 2♠ = INV+, 4♥, <4♠

You do lose Crawling Stayman of course but your post seems to be suggesting other issues.

[MickyB]

I was referring to the garbage hands [H+S or D+H+S], but specifically those which are interested in game iff they find a fit. A 5-4-3-1 7-count opposite a 15-17 NT is the perfect example. These hands are more important than having ways to invite and stop in 2N/3M IMO.

[akwoo]

This is in a Kaplan-Sheinwold-inspired rather than Acol context, but...

I agree with Phil above:

With hearts, 1N unless I'm willing to consider it a 6 card suit.

With spades, 1S unless I'm willing to consider it a 4 card suit.

One issue is competition in spades. A second issue is that we play 1H-1S-1N as showing 15-17, while the 1S bidder basically never has this problem.

[MrAce]

deleted

[Wackojack]

Further considerations along with other things already mentioned:
1.

5233 open 1♠
5332 Open 1NT
2533 Consider opening 1♥
3532 Open 1NT
Partner with a 5 card major will transfer. So when you open 1NT with 3 in the other major you find your 5-3 fit. Opening 1NT with 2 in the other major you may lose your 5-3 fit and instead find yourself in a 5-2 fit.

2.

With 14 points and a decent 5 card suit consider uprating the hand to 15 and thus in acol style open 1M and rebid no trumps if partner responds in a suit.

[EricK]

I think it partly depends on how weak your 2/1 bid can be. If it is GF, you can definitely afford to open 1M and have the room to sort it out later (although you will need to agree in advance exactly how your are going to show this hand). If can be weaker, then it is not so easy, and I would be tempted to open 1NT unless my hand screamed otherwise.

[benlessard]

When we open 1M we are always unbalanced, so with 5M332 we are forced to open 1C (15+) or 1NT (12-14) and for us opening 1Nt with a 5M is by far the weakest part of our system. Ive played this system for many years and even in a 10-14 or 11-14 NT when NV. In the long run we were loser here no doubt about it. Im a strong believer in weak NT and the only time I believe strong nt is equal or better than a weak NT is in 1st and 2nd seat VUL. When opponents play 1NT 15-17, I believe that they handling me gifts of tiny amount of imps each times they have a 12-14 bal NV or in 3rd and 4th seat.

However unless you have a good systemic reason you should always bid the 5M instead of opening 1NT. They are 3 main reasons for this.


1- 1NT--(overcall)--??? sometimes our fit get burried partner doest find the right lead or we dont compete enough.

2- 1NT all pass going down vs 2M making.

3- 1NT--(X) is the 3rd one. Even if you find a decent spot you will still be in a dangerous spot compared to those who open 1M.


The biggest advantage of the weak nt is that you avoid LHO making an 1-level overcall however the higher you open the lower the risk of an enemy overcall. So opening 1NT with 5S doesnt give you anything, so you should only do this because of systemic rebid problem.

IMO another small drawback is that

1H-1S-1NT as 15-17 is a fairly rare hand for a premium bidding space.

[PhilKing]

I think this is the wrong forum to discuss the many factors behind the Pavlicek stats, but I firmly believe that Acol, despite it's many other flaws is best able to allow flexibilty (and effectiveness) in this regard. For and those with the time, you can view the most recnt 100 occasions where one side opened 1♥/♠ and the other 1NT and see what is actually happening.

It may be a deep reach, since virtually none of the hands involve Acol pairs, but whatever! To be continued.