[mikeh]

32519, on 2013-July-31, 09:48, said:

I think that this is an area where we, and probably many others as well, leak a lot of points. I have jimmied some of the cards from the actual hand to present this layout -

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Game is on. However the problem is that West does not know either East's hand strength or actual distribution i.e. is the ♠ suit only 4-cards, or is it 5? My own methods are hopeless here as I have no way of exploring for game. I need to find a bid to announce a double fit and invite game. I don't (DONT) have one? How about your methods? How would you find the game here? Then I can dump DONT.

If your goal is to always reach playable games after the opps open a strong Notrump, my advice: give up the game. You are chasing moonbeams.

It is possible to reach playable games over their strong notrump but it is impossible to reach all of them and thinking that you 'should' be able to do so is an error.

The odds are that the hand belongs to the opps. The odds are that, left to their own devices, a competent set of opps will get to a good contract. Not all the time. LHO might hold a balanced 0 count. But bridge is about frequency of gain or loss, even at imps or total points (where size of gain or loss are also and sometimes more important).

The probabilities make it desirable to maximize our ability to disrupt their auction, even at the expense of negatively impacting our ability to accurately handle hands with game potential. We don't want to destroy our chances of game, but we do want to assign that target a much lower priority than getting in and fighting for the partscore.

Thus this hand is about showing our 2-suiter, in the hope that we can outbid them at the 2 or 3 level, not about how to reach 4♠.

Until and unless you learn that you have to operate within the constraints of the situation, you will never become a good bridge player.

[Vampyr]

Against Strong NT, we play that double = majors or minors or diamonds. But Landy and Multi-Landy are probably just as effective or more.

[mycroft]

If you're playing DONT for its constructive benefits, especially at matchpoints, switch - immediately - to any other interference scheme - even Natural.

Goal 2 of DONT is to get to a *safe* place, fast. The *right* place, even the right *suit* is of no concern whatever.

The reason for that is that Goal 1 of DONT is DONT - disturb opponent's NT. And that means "get in whenever feasible, with anything safe." Which means that you have to get in with these hands (and 2♦, yep) and with AKT6 KJ9 QT85 T6 or KT86 KJ9 QT854 6 (at this vulnerability at least). If you always promise a good hand, you're not getting in often enough for the disturb to pay for the losses you get by playing 2m instead of 2M (or 4M or 3NT or whatever) or by not being able to double for penalty.

"How can we avoid missing cold games after their NT overcall playing DONT?" is a question with no reasonable answer other than "that question makes no sense." or "Don't play DONT."

[Zelandakh]

mikeh, on 2013-July-31, 10:43, said:

If your goal is to always reach playable games after the opps open a strong Notrump, my advice: give up the game. You are chasing moonbeams.

I would just forget about it Mike. We have been through this whole thing before with precisely the same things being said. If the OP has not absorbed these arguments by now then he probably never will.

[Fluffy]

lol I gave up his threads very long ago.

[helene_t]

DONT doesn't disturb that much. Half of your two-suited overcalls include clubs which means that with all your non-spades one-suiters, and half of your two-suiters, you either help them or make no difference to their NT structure. Even the 2♥ overcall doesn't disturb them much as they are unlikely to want to use stayman or major suit transfers when you hold both majors. You might in fact help them steering clear of a 4-4 fit in a major when you tell them that suit will break 4-1 or 5-0. OK, the same is true for Landy but with Landy at least you can stop in 2♣ when partner has long clubs, and partner can ask for your longer major, and you can bid hearts when you have a one-suiter with hearts.

Not being able to show your major suit when you have a M+m two-suiter is not great either. Not to mention not being able show your 1-suiter is not great either.

Partner will miss some opportunities to compete to the 3-level because he doesn't know you major suit.

DONT is ok when you are w/w at matchpoints and want to compete over their 1NT as often as possible. But I wouldn't want to play a convention that only applied in that situation.