[Cthulhu D]

What do people do with their 2 level jump shifts after 1C and 1D (and 1H-2S)? We've been playing Soloway strong jump shifts through to this point, but they have come up maybe once a year so it seems like a waste of a bid. Anyone got any thoughts on what a better system might be? (We need jump shifts to the 3 level for other calls)

I've seen people propose reverse flannery with 5 spades and 4 hearts by responder, and that's definately something to consider, but I'm not sure what else to do. You could also have a purely artifical SJS setup with something like:

1C-2D: Artifical SJS
1C-2H: Reverse Flannery
1C-2S?

I really have no idea.

Edit: We play 1NT as SF as best (and very semi forcing, it is routinely passed) and inverted minor raises.

[akwoo]

Particularly if you're playing inverted minors, I think a mixed raise is a good use of one of these bids.

[awm]

I like natural and invitational. There are several advantages to this:

1. Helps you stay low on a real misfit (compare 1m-1M-2m-3M)
2. Shortness ask can enable better choices between 4M and 3NT
3. Easier slam auctions when opener has a really big hand opposite invite
4. Less informative game auctions
5. Some of the advantages of SJS because 1m-1M-2m-3M is now GF

My feeling is that the reverse flannery hands usually are not difficult to bid without the convention, at least if you adopt my style of often rebidding 1nt on a minimum three-suited pattern (i.e. 1444/13(45)/14(35) after 1m-1S, 31(45) after 1m-1H).

[Cthulhu D]

 awm, on 2014-January-30, 19:30, said:

I like natural and invitational. There are several advantages to this:

1. Helps you stay low on a real misfit (compare 1m-1M-2m-3M)
2. Shortness ask can enable better choices between 4M and 3NT
3. Easier slam auctions when opener has a really big hand opposite invite
4. Less informative game auctions
5. Some of the advantages of SJS because 1m-1M-2m-3M is now GF

My feeling is that the reverse flannery hands usually are not difficult to bid without the convention, at least if you adopt my style of often rebidding 1nt on a minimum three-suited pattern (i.e. 1444/13(45)/14(35) after 1m-1S, 31(45) after 1m-1H).

As we play 1D-3C, 1H-3C/D etc as natural invitational, this has appeal. Isn't the situations where opener rebids his minor the ones where you have the biggest reverse flannery problems? Though I guess partner is not going to rebid his minor if he has 4 spades, so the problems might be irrelevant.

[Vampyr]

 akwoo, on 2014-January-30, 19:15, said:

Particularly if you're playing inverted minors, I think a mixed raise is a good use of one of these bids.

Playing inverted minors, you have 3m and 2NT available as weird and weak raises. Unless you use 2NT for something else. Natural and invitational has not yet been outlawed (at least in England).

Minor-to- major WJS might have good preemptive value.

[aguahombre]

 Vampyr, on 2014-January-30, 21:34, said:

Minor-to- major WJS might have good preemptive value.

Yes. It preempts them and it preemptively prevents CHO's inevitable 2NT rebid when we instead decide to respond 1S with our 4-count.

We think we need 1C-2D, however, for a strong slammish response --single-suited or both minors...ala Mike Lawrence. Without this, we would be in an ugly situation after 1C-1D-1N, for instance --- new major artificial checkback? That still would not unscrew 1-4-5-3 g.f.+ responses.

IMO, for those who like Jacoby 2N, they are better placed using 1H-2S as J2S or 1S-3C as the Jacoby bids ---keeping 2N as a balanced forcing call and allowing 2/1 responses to be real suits.

[Siegmund]

Depends a lot on the rest of your system. Reverse Flannery has a place to avoid a rebid problem after 1m-1M-2m. The mixed raise takes care of some awkward 8 counts and is remarkably frequent compared to some of the alternatives. And in general, fit-jumps are a fine use for otherwise idle jumps. They do work best if you have a set of three, rather than just one or two spare ones.

2NT natural and forcing is very handy, over both minors and majors.

I personally intensely dislike 1M-3m invitational, but I understand some 2/1ers find it to be a necessary evil. If the rest of your system includes a badly overstressed 1NTF bid, so be it.

[paulg]

We play 1m-2M is split range reverse Flannery (3-8, 9-11) with 1♣-2♦ being a weak multi.

We play 1♥-2♠ as 5-5 minors, inv+.

[MickyB]

More information about your system would be useful.

What do you open on a balanced hand with four diamonds?
Can you spare 1C:2C, i.e. put your club hands in 1S or 1NT? I like to play that 1S implies diamonds, while 1NT shows 5+clubs any strength.
After 1C:1R, what's your rebid with a strong balanced hand? If it is 1NT then WJS are much less useful, possibly even counter-productive.
How do you play completing the transfer?

 Cthulhu D, on 2014-January-30, 18:32, said:

very semi forcing

I think you mean "demisemiforcing".

[Cthulhu D]

 MickyB, on 2014-January-31, 08:12, said:

More information about your system would be useful.

What do you open on a balanced hand with four diamonds?

1 club.

Quote

Can you spare 1C:2C, i.e. put your club hands in 1S or 1NT? I like to play that 1S implies diamonds, while 1NT shows 5+clubs any strength.

No - 1S is 5+ diamonds and 1NT is balanced.

Quote

After 1C:1R, what's your rebid with a strong balanced hand? If it is 1NT then WJS are much less useful, possibly even counter-productive.

1NT, the minimum balanced hand accepts the transfer.

Quote

How do you play completing the transfer?

Balanced minimum with 2 or 3 card support or a 5431 hand that has no logical rebid avaliable (e.g. you accept the heart transfer with a stiff spade and 3 hearts after 1C-1D, but if you have a stiff diamond, 3 hearts and 4 spades you bid 1S after 1C-1D.

Quote

I personally intensely dislike 1M-3m invitational, but I understand some 2/1ers find it to be a necessary evil. If the rest of your system includes a badly overstressed 1NTF bid, so be it.

Yes, I'm stuck with it because 1NT is not forcing.

Quote

Playing inverted minors, you have 3m and 2NT available as weird and weak raises. Unless you use 2NT for something else. Natural and invitational has not yet been outlawed (at least in England).

We play 1m - 2NT as balanced invitational and 1M-2NT as a limit raise or better.

[MickyB]

In that case, I suggest that over 1C you play -

2D = invitational jump in either major
2H = 5S4H 5-9 or so
2S = both minors, 6-10 or so [to play in 3m opposite a weak NT and in game opposite a strong balanced hand]

awm has covered why invitational jumps are good. I strongly recommend against playing WJS with this method, 1C:2H [4-8 6+hearts] leaves you terribly placed compared with 1C:1D, 1NT where you can now bid 2H to sign off, 2C:2D, 2H as an invite or jump to [or transfer to] 4H on a maximum WJS.

Only one Flannery bid is required IMO; there's nothing wrong with bidding 1C:1H!, 2C:2H on the invitational hands.

That leaves 1C:2S somewhat in search of a meaning. I think the one I've suggested is quite effective, although 1C:1S to show 5+diamonds is already a reasonable start on those hands, so maybe there's something better available.

Ok, follow-up question. What is 1D:1S, 1NT?

[Cthulhu D]

 MickyB, on 2014-January-31, 08:56, said:

In that case, I suggest that over 1C you play -

2D = invitational jump in either major
2H = 5S4H 5-9 or so
2S = both minors, 6-10 or so [to play in 3m opposite a weak NT and in game opposite a strong balanced hand]

awm has covered why invitational jumps are good. I strongly recommend against playing WJS with this method, 1C:2H [4-8 6+hearts] leaves you terribly placed compared with 1C:1D, 1NT where you can now bid 2H to sign off, 2C:2D, 2H as an invite or jump to [or transfer to] 4H on a maximum WJS.

Only one Flannery bid is required IMO; there's nothing wrong with bidding 1C:1H!, 2C:2H on the invitational hands.

That leaves 1C:2S somewhat in search of a meaning. I think the one I've suggested is quite effective, although 1C:1S to show 5+diamonds is already a reasonable start on those hands, so maybe there's something better available.

Yeah, I was thinking of something along those lines. It makes invitational diamond hands a complete bastard to bid though.

Quote

Ok, follow-up question. What is 1D:1S, 1NT?

5+ diamonds, 4 hearts, minimum ish.

[MickyB]

 Cthulhu D, on 2014-January-31, 09:25, said:

5+ diamonds, 4 hearts, minimum ish.

Ok, so no need for Flannery here. Just play weak jumps or invitational jumps.

[Cascade]

What I like best is fit jumps for 1m 2M. Our precise agreement is 10+hcp 4+m 4+M

[Vampyr]

 aguahombre, on 2014-January-30, 23:22, said:

We think we need 1C-2D, however, for a strong slammish response --single-suited or both minors...ala Mike Lawrence. Without this, we would be in an ugly situation after 1C-1D-1N, for instance --- new major artificial checkback? That still would not unscrew 1-4-5-3 g.f.+ responses.

Even for people who play NMF, 2♣ is the checkback bid when both minors or both majors have been bid.

[Kungsgeten]

 Cthulhu D, on 2014-January-31, 09:25, said:

Yeah, I was thinking of something along those lines. It makes invitational diamond hands a complete bastard to bid though.

What about this?

1C---
2D = Weak Jump Shift
2M = Invitational Jump Shift

As said earlier WJS in the majors can be bid in other ways, but WJS in diamonds probably can not (or perhaps you could put them in 1S, but it seems like that could lead to problems).

Yes you loose Reverse Flannery here which might be a problem. One solution could be to transfer to hearts with a semi-weak hand with 5-4 majors:

1C--1D; 1H--1S = At least 4-4 majors. Invitational or less. If invitational then exactly 4-4 majors. If less than invitational may be 5-4 or 4-5 majors.
1C--1D; 1N--2S = Reverse Flannery (but unfortunately one step higher)
1C--1D; 1S (you found a fit, good!)
1C--1D; 2C (you do not seem to have a fit)

1C--1D; 1H--1S;
pass = min with 3(+) spades, hand seems to do better in spades
1NT = No 4 card major, does not want to pass (may be unbalanced if max)
...2C = Invitational with 4-4 majors (opener may pass with 5 clubs. Bids at 2-level are natural min and 3-level are natural max)
...2D = Invitational with 4-4-4-1 or 4-4-5-0 (or you could use this as 4-4 majors which do not want to pass 1NT)
...2M = 5 card suit, to play
2C = Min with 5(+) clubs, no 4 card major
...2D = 4-4-4-1, 4-4-5-0 or possibly (45)-4-0
...2M = 5 card suit, does not want to play 2C
2D = Min with 5 diamonds, no 4 card major
...2H = 5 hearts or 4-4-1-4
...2S = 5 spades
2H = Min with 3 hearts (may be unbalanced so responder should not correct to 2S)
2S = 4 spades, min or max

[aguahombre]

 Vampyr, on 2014-January-31, 23:29, said:

Even for people who play NMF, 2♣ is the checkback bid when both minors or both majors have been bid.

For some pairs, this is true. We don't chose to languish in 1NT with a 1-3-5-4 dog, and will try to play 2C or 2D. I understand that natural limited bids are old fashioned, but so are we.

[Vampyr]

 aguahombre, on 2014-February-01, 17:07, said:

For some pairs, this is true. We don't chose to languish in 1NT with a 1-3-5-4 dog, and will try to play 2C or 2D. I understand that natural limited bids are old fashioned, but so are we.

I do think you lose a lot by not playing checkback. -- for instance, you are kind of low on forcing bids after. 1NT rebid. But since my 1NT rebid is 15-17, there is no reason to want to escape from it.

[aguahombre]

 Vampyr, on 2014-February-01, 18:59, said:

I do think you lose a lot by not playing checkback. -- for instance, you are kind of low on forcing bids after. 1NT rebid. But since my 1NT rebid is 15-17, there is no reason to want to escape from it.

Yes, there are different concerns if playing weak NT. But, we don't find checkback 2C necessary because of all the other things that go into 1C-1D-1NT in our style. The only exception was slammish responding hands with both minors or just Diamonds, and we don't need checkback for that because we would have responded 2D/1C.

Up-the-line bidders have different issues as well, but we are not they.

[Cthulhu D]

The reverse flannery hands (5 spades, 4 hearts) are not really a problem - we play transfer XYZ so it's very easy to show the handshape. AFter say a 1C opener, we bid 1C-1H; 1S then either 2C-2D-2H with invitational values or 2D! (transfer to hearts) with the weak hand.

The showing the 5th heart in a 5/4 hand is harder.