[kenrexford]

FWIW, since we are getting into theory:

If you start a sequence with 3♣ puppet, the best case scenario is the major you can set as trumps with a 3♠ call. So, for instance, assume simple Stayman. If Opener bids 3♥, and Responder bids 3♠ as the "other major" slam try (agreeing hearts), then the heart sequence is the best case scenario. In contrast, the spade sequence is the worst case scenario.

If you start with that principle, a reasonable method for dealing with 4-4-4-1 slammish hands is to make an automatic 4♠ call (2NT-P-4♠) show the 4-4-4-1 slam hand with the "worst case scenario" stiff major, waiting to bid 4♠ delayed with the "best case scenario" short major. Thus, in the simple Stayman situation, 4♠ direct as 4-1-4-4, but 4♠ delayed (2NT-3♣-3♦-4♠ or 2NT-3♣-3♠-4♠) as the best case scenario. That approach, however, has an obvious flaw, in that you would then need to transfer to spades to play in spades, losing any slam try in spades.

Thus, the better method is to have the immediate 4♠ show the 1-4-4-4 slam try and the delayed show the 4-1-4-4 slam try, as you avoid the 3♠ rebid problem.

This approach makes sense if you have Delayed Texas Transfers, where 2NT-3♣-3♦-4♦/4♥ shows a non-slammish 6-4 (showing slammish values by way of Smolen). But, what about the hands with a four-card major and diamonds? You want to bid 3♣ and then 4♦, but that is a Delayed Texas transfer. The solution for that hand is to bid 4♠ as the diamond-oriented slam try, except that this now causes a problem with the delayed 4-1-4-4 slam try.

So, to avoid that problem, you only use Delayed Texas for one of the majors. This again calls in the best case scenario analysis. The best case scenario for Smolen seems initially to be the 3♥ call showing spades, as this maximizes room to unwind whether Responder was slammish or not when Opener has three spades. But, the Delayed Texas issue concerns the 6-2 fit, as well. In the worst case scenario, Opener only has a two-piece holding and declines Smolen (3NT). To preserve space to show the minors, in that sequence, and still re-transfer, the best case scenario is when Responder has spades, worst case when Responder has hearts. So, it turns out that both work somewhat well for the spade-based but poorly for the heart-based. Hence, you probably need the Delayed Texas for hearts more than for spades. Assuming this, then, you have 2NT-3♣-3♦-4♦ as Delayed Texas, 4♥ as the major-DIAMOND slam try, and 4♠ as the 4-1-4-4 slam try, always going through 3♥ Smolen if 5+♠/4♥.

[whereagles]

PhilKing, on 2014-June-06, 03:14, said:

Over 3M the other M agrees the suit (Helene_T, post 7). 4m is just natural, 5m plus 4♠ - not 2 way.

Well, that works well for puppet stayman and regular stayman after 3♠. But for

2NT 3♣
3♥ 3♠

you have to wait for opener to support spades.

Still, as a principle it's playable yes.

[Zelandakh]

aguahombre, on 2014-June-06, 06:37, said:

Having explored for the major and gotten to 3NT, 4H is indeed idle. In your scheme, where 4H shows clubs and 4S shows diamonds, what shows both --as in the OP case?

Our crude version has 4S quant with one or both 4cm, and opener's acceptances then show which minor they would accept as a slam strain (or both).

My thinking is to use these 4M calls as Baron with hearts linked to clubs and spades linked to diamonds. This is similar to the way I used the 3M calls in the sequence 1NT - 2♣; 2♠ - 3♦ in my Stayman structure and an idea I like and use in a few other places too. So with both minors Responder would bid 4♥ to show clubs and Opener would the continue 4♠ with diamonds but not clubs.

The point you make about having a 4 card major here is well taken and also the reason why I use the direct 4M calls (2NT - 3♣; 3♦ - 4M) to show 5-4 minor hands, nicely also locating 5-3 major fits along the way in the common (31)(54) case.

Ken's ideas are as always interesting but I think a little imporactical. I have played around with schemes like this a little and found that while they seem logical at the time, 12 months later the logic is not always apparent; and it is worse for partner who usually has different thought processes. Of course, some of my partners would probably say the same thing about some of the things I do like to play.

Also, I am surprised at the comment about no slam try after a spade transfer - do you not play 2NT - 3♥; 3♠ - 4♥ as a slam try here Ken? You can surely bid your 5-5 major hands differently. And that is the point here I think. Once you start optimising a given base structure you often end up in a situation where you have to start splitting hands in strange ways to make everything perfect. The better answer is then usually to alter the basis rather than move into the special cases.

In this case I think the culprit is the requirement for delayed Smolen. It is inefficient to have a bid showing 6-4 and another bid to ask about the 4 card suit and doing it this way loses the chance to use both 4m rebids to cover most of the hands with both majors. It seems more like a mix between a Puppet structure and a normal Stayman structure here. I am sure you can come back with much better wackiness in this area Ken!

[Zelandakh]

whereagles, on 2014-June-06, 07:20, said:

Well, that works well for puppet stayman and regular stayman after 3♠. But for

2NT 3♣
3♥ 3♠

you have to wait for opener to support spades.

Opener will not have 4 spades here and with 5 spades Responder would have chosen another route. So 3♠ is not needed to find a spade fit. Instead it makes to play it either as agreeing hearts or as a transfer showing 5+ clubs.

[kenrexford]

Zelandakh, on 2014-June-06, 08:05, said:

Ken's ideas are as always interesting but I think a little imporactical. I have played around with schemes like this a little and found that while they seem logical at the time, 12 months later the logic is not always apparent; and it is worse for partner who usually has different thought processes. Of course, some of my partners would probably say the same thing about some of the things I do like to play.

Also, I am surprised at the comment about no slam try after a spade transfer - do you not play 2NT - 3♥; 3♠ - 4♥ as a slam try here Ken? You can surely bid your 5-5 major hands differently. And that is the point here I think. Once you start optimising a given base structure you often end up in a situation where you have to start splitting hands in strange ways to make everything perfect. The better answer is then usually to alter the basis rather than move into the special cases.

In this case I think the culprit is the requirement for delayed Smolen. It is inefficient to have a bid showing 6-4 and another bid to ask about the 4 card suit and doing it this way loses the chance to use both 4m rebids to cover most of the hands with both majors. It seems more like a mix between a Puppet structure and a normal Stayman structure here. I am sure you can come back with much better wackiness in this area Ken!

I think you are misunderstanding what I am saying. I would in fact have a slam move after a transfer. I am specifically talking about the auction that starts with 2NT and 3♣ as normal Stayman. I do not play normal Stayman, which makes this somewhat theoretical. But, if you assume normal Stayman plus Smolen, the question is whether to have a "slam option" when Responder has four hearts and longer spades.

I pointed out that there is a simple slam sequence usually. That is, Responder starts with 3♥ as Smolen, after which Opener can bid 3♠. Because this exists, Responder has less need for distinguishing 6♠/4♥ and slammish from 6♠/4♥ and no slam interest (but interest in the possible 4-4 heart fit), as he can go through Smolen rather than a Delayed Texas Transfer with either hand, rejecting any overtures in the weak scenario but cuebidding on with the strong scenario.

Then, however, there is the problem of wanting to indicate invite or non-invite with the 6-4 hands when Opener only has a two-fit. In that scenario, you have a potential problem. Of course, the "solution" is to simply bid 4♥ Texas immediately with those weak hands, despite the 4-card heart suit, which is probably right anyway (swan issues). If you actually have the "almost slam interest" hand, Smolen is probably the way to go, because you want the 3-piece raise rather than the 2-piece raise.

[whereagles]

Zelandakh, on 2014-June-06, 08:08, said:

Opener will not have 4 spades here and with 5 spades Responder would have chosen another route. So 3♠ is not needed to find a spade fit. Instead it makes to play it either as agreeing hearts or as a transfer showing 5+ clubs.

I was thinking of regular stayman: opener can still have spades here, unless you play that 2NT-3♣-3NT shows both majors.

[dboxley]

I assume you don't have a way to look for minor 44 fits or this wouldn't be a problem. I bid 3♣ and over:

3♦: 4NT
3♥: 4S (it's either kickback or splinter, I don't care which)
3♠: 4NT

[dboxley]

the hog, on 2014-June-05, 02:41, said:

3C followed by 3NT over 3D/S. Make a st over 3H.

Wow, that's a pretty pessimistic view. Not typical of you.

[Zelandakh]

whereagles, on 2014-June-06, 12:24, said:

I was thinking of regular stayman: opener can still have spades here, unless you play that 2NT-3♣-3NT shows both majors.

In regular Stayman 2NT - 3♣; 3♥ - 3NT shows 4 spades so the 3♠ rebid is still idle in a natural sense.

[mikeh]

whereagles, on 2014-June-05, 05:02, said:

If partner happens to bid hearts, then 4NT is RKCB yes.

not to many good players....it is standard, at least in NA (and I suspect elsewhere) to play that one plays 4N as quantitative

[gnasher]

I'd make whatever bid I'm supposed to make with 4-4 in the minors. Even if we have a heart fit, it's not that likely that we'll want to play there. Holding ♠Q makes it quite likely that we can throw away our small hearts on spades, but we can't do that if hearts are trumps.

[FrancesHinden]

Zelandakh, on 2014-June-06, 19:10, said:

In regular Stayman 2NT - 3♣; 3♥ - 3NT shows 4 spades so the 3♠ rebid is still idle in a natural sense.

Not really. 3NT is non-forcing with 4 spades, so you do want to bid 3S on a slam try with spades. If you have some 4234 good hand you want to bid 3S, then 4C over 3NT.

[banrock]

Myself & P play 3♣ over 2NT is singleton ♠ (3 ♦ is singleton ♥) reasoning is after 2NT (20-22 pts must be 4333 for our system any other low 20 count we open 2♣ and rebid 2NT) we find that keeping the ♥ & ♠ for natural bids wastes far less space, and (lets be honest) most times opposite 20-22 flat with any 4-9 pt hand you'd prob want to be in 3NT anyway, with 10 plus (as in this case) you'd be investigating slam or looking to escape in minor game so why not get lots of bids off your chest with just one ! There is always pass available for minimum hands. So 2NT-3♣-3NT is don't worry about ♠ leave me in it unless you have a very good reason, 2NT-3♣-3♥ means 4♥and semi-stop in ♠ and can be passed or raised (with 4), or 3NT if singleton ♠ is honour card or /4♣/♦ with 5 card minor, and 2NT-3♣-3♠ is pick a minor level dependent on point count, 0-4 4 level 5-9 5 level with 3NT still available as slam interest in minor.

[Zelandakh]

FrancesHinden, on 2014-June-08, 13:10, said:

Not really. 3NT is non-forcing with 4 spades, so you do want to bid 3S on a slam try with spades. If you have some 4234 good hand you want to bid 3S, then 4C over 3NT.

Do you think it makes sense to assign the meaning of 4 spades to both of our cheapest calls? Surely better that either 3♠ covers both of these hand types (and 3NT becomes artificial) or to make 3♠ artificial and cover the Baro-type hand another way.

banrock, on 2014-June-08, 13:15, said:

Myself & P play 3♣ over 2NT is singleton ♠ (3 ♦ is singleton ♥) reasoning is after 2NT (20-22 pts must be 4333 for our system

Do you think the response structure for an opening 2NT showing specifically 4333 shape is meaningful in comparison with one that can be any balanced hand plus a few 4441s?

[FrancesHinden]

Zelandakh, on 2014-June-08, 15:55, said:

Do you think it makes sense to assign the meaning of 4 spades to both of our cheapest calls? Surely better that either 3♠ covers both of these hand types (and 3NT becomes artificial) or to make 3♠ artificial and cover the Baro-type hand another way.

This is in the context of playing 'normal Stayman' in response to 2NT. If you want to start playing artificial continuations, then you are probably not playing 'normal Stayman' to start with.

[cherdano]

gnasher, on 2014-June-07, 03:53, said:

I'd make whatever bid I'm supposed to make with 4-4 in the minors. Even if we have a heart fit, it's not that likely that we'll want to play there. Holding ♠Q makes it quite likely that we can throw away our small hearts on spades, but we can't do that if hearts are trumps.

I also think this might be best.

I certainly don't understand bidding stayman, then making a slam try over 3♥, but signing off over 3♦. A 3♦ response (=>minor suit fit promised!) seems much better news than a 3♥ response.

[waldorf1]

EricK, on 2014-June-04, 15:59, said:

Playing MP Pairs, partner opens 2NT (ostensibly 20-22 HCP), and you hold ♠Q ♥T963 ♦KJ82 ♣KQ95. What's your bidding plan? eg if you are going to start with 3♣, what do you intend to do over each of partner's possible responses?

[waldorf1]

I have found that without either hand holding a five-card (or lonter) suit, it generally takes a combined holding of 34 HCP to bid a slam that is over 50%. The popular requirement of 33 HCP comes from antiquity, because it simply ensures that the partnership is not off two aces. With 33, the slam will almost always require a finesse, and frequently a little extra, too, so you will be in a 45% slam at best. Therefore, I would never consider 6NT on this hand.

With four small hearts, I would definitely use (Puppet) Stayman, but finding a 4-4 heart fit doesn't necessarily make slam a good bet, either. First of all, partner's hearts almost certainly need to be AKJx or better, and even then the slam will almost certainly be on the heart finesse AND a 3-2 break, because there will probably be one loser in the side suits.

So I would be quite conservative in a heart contract. Maybe the way to go is to look for a 4-4 MINOR suit fit and ignore hearts, by starting with 3S. That seems to me to offer the best chance, as some losing hearts may well be discarded.

[waldorf1]

I have found that without either hand holding a five-card (or lonter) suit, it generally takes a combined holding of 34 HCP to bid a slam that is over 50%. The popular requirement of 33 HCP comes from antiquity, because it simply ensures that the partnership is not off two aces. With 33, the slam will almost always require a finesse, and frequently a little extra, too, so you will be in a 45% slam at best. Therefore, I would never consider 6NT on this hand.

With four small hearts, I would definitely use (Puppet) Stayman, but finding a 4-4 heart fit doesn't necessarily make slam a good bet, either. First of all, partner's hearts almost certainly need to be AKJx or better, and even then the slam will almost certainly be on the heart finesse AND a 3-2 break, because there will probably be one loser in the side suits.

So I would be quite conservative in a heart contract. Maybe the way to go is to look for a 4-4 MINOR suit fit and ignore hearts, by starting with 3S. That seems to me to offer the best chance, as some losing hearts may well be discarded.