[crdshrk]

Not opening 2C was correct. Yes you have 20 points, but you have a five-loser hand, not good enough for 2C.

So the options now: your hand is better than 3D which is in the 15-18 range. So that is out.

You couldn't open 2N because of your shape, so rebidding 2N which now lies about your shape AND points is definitely wrong.

A jump shift shows the value of your hand, but the only suit you can jump shift into is clubs, which if not ideal so I would pass on that.

So to me, the only viable options are a reverse into 2S or make a game-forcing heart raise. Yes you could be in a 4-3 heart fit, but your ruffing clubs with the short trumps, so that should be ok. So what is the best game forcing bid in hearts? Personally I like a Swiss 4D showing a heart raise with a diamond suit that is a source of tricks. The advantage here is that it keeps 5D (which may be the only making contract) viable.

But I have a lot of sympathy for 2S because 3N is where you might need to be and you can still show heart support later. The thing I don't like about 3N is that partner has to bid it exposing your hand.

[perko90]

I think I would have opened 2NT (but not really liked it).
With no fancy agreements, I would try 2♠ (but not really like that, either).
This isn't quite the right hand (but close). I like 4♦ to show long strong D's and a good 3 pc raise of ptr's major. Something like:

Ax
AQx
AKJTxxx
x

[nige1]

kenberg, on 2015-April-04, 09:47, said:

Your call. It's matchpoints. You are not playing anything exotic. The 1H showed hearts, presumably at least a 6 count or something close to it. A rebid of 3D is, I suppose this goes without saying, strong but not forcing. I didn't and don't think the hand warrants a 2C opening despite this foreseeable problem. I acknowledge that I should have thought about what I was going to do after a major suit response when I opened 1D, I was lazy and didn't, but I think i would still have opened 1D. Whatever is right or wrong on this particular specific full deal, I am interested in what you think is a good plan with this hand.

---

IMO 2♠ = 10, 2N = 9, 1♠ = 8, 4♥ = 7, 3♦ = 6, 3♥ = 5.

[Left2Right]

Funny you should ask: This is the hand that my new BBO constraint file allows you and you partners to test.

See http://www.charlesan...onstraints.html

Instructions on how to use constraint files at the BBO bidding or Teaching tables are on this page.
One must scroll down the page to get to the library of constraints.

Do keep in mind that your bidding solution, whatever it is, will need to work opposite wonderful hands as well as the mangy ones.

Charles A. Lee

[1stpanda]

The downside of bidding spades is as Charles Lee says - Partner may have a good hand like ♠-Kxxx ♥-Kxxx ♦-Qx ♣KJx - - partner will bid 4S over your 1S or Blackwood over 2S and you will be committed to playing in spades, vulnerable to bad trump breaks, when where you want to be is 6D.

This hand type was discussed many times in the Bridge World Master Solver's Club - it was familiarly known as the "Bridge World Death Hand." It is likely that what will work best in practice is to jump shift in clubs - your only real losing case will be when partner has 6 clubs (of 12) rather than a losing case of partner having 4 spades (of 10). When 3C goes wrong, though, it can be ugly. The nonforcing 1S rebid also has much to recommend it - as has been discussed, your worst case will be being stranded in a 3-3 fit at the 1-level when partner has 4 or 5 hearts and a weak hand.

I find opening 2NT with this hand distasteful - when partner bids Stayman, and RHO doubles for the lead, you just know you are sunk. And when partner transfers, you have no good way to investigate slam potential - is partner going to believe that ♠ - xxx ♥ - KQxxx ♦ xx ♣ - xxx yields a great play for slam from your side? Or are you going to drive to slam over his 3NT rebid, and find that he has ♠ - xxx ♥ - Kxxxx ♦ - Jx ♣ - Jxx?

And a 2♣ opening is beyond the pale - after 2♣-negative response, 3♦, you basically have no chance to reach a making spot. And does his major suit rebid here show 5 or can it be 4, or even a stopper?

[nige1]

1stpanda, on 2015-April-05, 16:41, said:

The downside of bidding spades is as Charles Lee says - Partner may have a good hand like ♠-Kxxx ♥-Kxxx ♦-Qx ♣KJx - - partner will bid 4S over your 1S or Blackwood over 2S and you will be committed to playing in spades, vulnerable to bad trump breaks, when where you want to be is 6D.

For some players who employ a modern version of 2/1, a 1♠ rebid promises 4+ ♠s but a 2♠ rebid promises only 3+ ♠s (to cater specifically for difficult hands like this one). If responder has 4+ ♠s, he raises but only to 3♠.

[kenberg]

nige1, on 2015-April-05, 18:33, said:

For some players who emply a modern version of 2/1, a 1♠ rebid promises 4+ ♠s but a 2♠ rebid promises only 3 (to cater specifically for difficult hands like this one). If responder has 4+ ♠s, he raises but only to 3♠.

This is very useful. If my 2S call had crashed and burned then, armed with this, I could have just said "Of course I play that my 2S bid only showed three, doesn't everyone play that way?".

My actual thinking was that often partner won't have four spades and, if he is 4-4 in the majors, then with a little luck he might be able to handle it playing in spades. Of course he might have five hearts to go with his four spades. But then I can explain about how 2S only promises three cards. Well, I could try!

[jdgalt]

Assuming standard American, I bid 2S because, as someone else said first, 1S would not be forcing. And given partner's first response I want to be in game.

What I want to hear partner do then is bid clubs. If he can do that, I'll say 3NT. If he goes back to diamonds, 5D. If he rebids hearts, 4H.

The hard case to deal with is if partner raises spades (in which I've promised four). Since it's matchpoints, I think I'll pass him in either 3S or 4S. At IMPs I would bid 4 and pray.

[nige1]

kenberg, on 2015-April-05, 20:08, said:

This is very useful. If my 2S call had crashed and burned then, armed with this, I could have just said "Of course I play that my 2S bid only showed three, doesn't everyone play that way?".

My actual thinking was that often partner won't have four spades and, if he is 4-4 in the majors, then with a little luck he might be able to handle it playing in spades.Of course he might have five hearts to go with his four spades. But then I can explain about how 2S only promises three cards. Well, I could try!

Even without specific agreement, perhaps partner should allow for the possibility. To handle similar predicaments, some partnerships agree that a reverse does not promise 4+ cards. e.g.

• ♠ A Q x ♥ A x x ♦ x ♣ A K J x x x : 1♣ - 1♠ -; 2♥
• ♠ A K x ♥ x ♦ A x ♣ K Q J x x x x : 1♣ - 1♠ -; 2♦

In Scotland, such practices are sufficiently common for some players to allow for the possibility, whenever such sequences are undiscussed.

[dave_beer]

1stpanda, on 2015-April-05, 16:41, said:

It is likely that what will work best in practice is to jump shift in clubs - your only real losing case will be when partner has 6 clubs (of 12) rather than a losing case of partner having 4 spades (of 10). When 3C goes wrong, though, it can be ugly.

I think you underestimate the danger of a 3♣ rebid. Let's see what is likely to happen over each of responder's normal rebids:

3♥ shows a suit good enough to play opposite Hx. No problem here.

3NT shows 1½ ♠ stoppers and no slam interest. Are you going to hope that your 3♣ bid stops the suit or are you going to remove 3NT to 4♥ describing a hand (roughly) 1-3-5-4? Good luck!

3♠ usually shows a hand that wants you to declare 3NT. You do have them stopped but there is that nagging problem with ♣ again. Same great choices as over 3NT.

4♣ suggests at least ♣Hxxx and maybe a 5th trump and no interest in hearing about delayed ♥ support. Something like xxx-KQxx-x-KTxxx. Now we probably belong in 3NT but we can't get there from here.

3♦ shows none of the above. It is a mark time bid which asks for further description. It does not promise ♦ support and could even be a singleton (or void). You can now rebid 3♥ showing roughly 1-3-5-4. Good luck with partner making an intelligent choice after that if his ♥ aren't playable opposite 3-card support.

On the other hand, if you bid 2♠, I think you only have a problem if partner raises ♠ or decides to take control with Blackwood. I don't think your example hand is a Blackwood call but I'm sure some players would do it. With that hand partner might bid 6NT which could easily be better than 6♠ at any form of scoring but especially at match points.

4♠ shows good trumps and denies 1st or 2nd round control of ♣. Given that I have ♠AQx that means at least ♠KJxx. While I could be missing a slam or have better play for 5♦ or 5♥ I would pass.

3♠ shows primary ♠ support but denies a hand that bids 4♠. I think 4♥ at this point suggests roughly 4-3-5-1 and also think that it should be forcing but I will not be surprised if partner passes.

[lycier]

kenberg, on 2015-April-04, 09:47, said:

---

Opening 1♦ is correct,no problem.
After responding 1♥,the opener should know they must have a try to bid to game.
A pity that there is a defect - singleton in ♣ in the opener hand.

1- If rebid 2nt,it usually shows 18-19 hcp with balanced hand,the worse thing is 2nt is non-forcing, and at the same time 2nt also covers up the defect of hand shape,so 2nt should be not a good option.
2- Jump 3♦,it still is non-forcing,not a good option.
3- 2♠ ! usually it shows 4-card ♠ and forcing.
The advantages of 2♠ is that opener give responder a second chance so as to describe the feature of the hand much further.

[zillahandp]

No disrespect but in order of most silly first 2nt, 3d, 1s .

[MrAce]

1stpanda, on 2015-April-05, 16:41, said:

The downside of bidding spades is as Charles Lee says - Partner may have a good hand like ♠-Kxxx ♥-Kxxx ♦-Qx ♣KJx - - partner will bid 4S over your 1S or Blackwood over 2S and you will be committed to playing in spades, vulnerable to bad trump breaks, when where you want to be is 6D.

Why would pd bid 4 NT over 2♠ instead of 3♠? What does he know about my shape? I can be 4144 4162 4153 even if he lacks the experience that this may be a 3 card jump. But even if he did bid 4 NT, we are not barred from bidding 6 NT at the end, are we?

[billw55]

zillahandp, on 2015-April-06, 07:36, said:

No disrespect but in order of most silly first 2nt, 3d, 1s .

This sounds odd, in view of:

Quote

2hts whats the prob harder at imps

2♥ is clearly a gross underbid - at matchpoints or IMPS.

[masse24]

crdshrk, on 2015-April-05, 08:57, said:

A jump shift shows the value of your hand, but the only suit you can jump shift into is clubs . . .

I intend to Jump-Shift into 2♠

[dhsackett]

This is the "Bridge World" death hand, so named because it was presented in the Master Solvers Club many times, and no one ever devised a good response. I think Al Roth first suggested 1 ♠

[mikestar13]

Nobody here knows how to bid the Bridge World Death Hand in a reasonably natural 2/1 or SAYC style system? Neither does Bob Hamman or Eric Rodwell, neither did Howard Schenken or Charles Goren back in the days, nor Ely Culbertson before that, nor Milton Work before that. No wonder Harold Vanderbilt himself played a Big Club system.

[mike777]

But often, very often make a bid with options and you will survive...see this hand.

the death hand need often very often not be death.

my choices were:

2nt
3d


we survive

[nige1]

mikestar13, on 2015-April-06, 21:51, said:

Nobody here knows how to bid the Bridge World Death Hand in a reasonably natural 2/1 or SAYC style system? Neither does Bob Hamman or Eric Rodwell, neither did Howard Schenken or Charles Goren back in the days, nor Ely Culbertson before that, nor Milton Work before that. No wonder Harold Vanderbilt himself played a Big Club system.

Obviously, if you agree a consistent approach to handling this predicament (e.g. always jump-shift or fake-reverse or whatever), then partner will be aware of this possibility when you choose that option; and partner can also be confident that other possible options are uncompromised.

[Cyberyeti]

mikestar13, on 2015-April-06, 21:51, said:

Nobody here knows how to bid the Bridge World Death Hand in a reasonably natural 2/1 or SAYC style system? Neither does Bob Hamman or Eric Rodwell, neither did Howard Schenken or Charles Goren back in the days, nor Ely Culbertson before that, nor Milton Work before that. No wonder Harold Vanderbilt himself played a Big Club system.

Actually, this is in part a strong notrump problem. You can handle it playing weak as you can widen the range of your 1N opener and/or rebid so that there is no gap between the 1N rebid and 2N opener, meaning that 1x-1y-2N is GF unbalanced so you don't need to bid 3 card suits.