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Best Defence to 1NT

#1 User is offline   Liversidge 

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Posted 2015-August-04, 11:48

My partner and I play Landy, but what is the best defense system for other two suited hands.
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#2 User is offline   eagles123 

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Posted 2015-August-04, 12:01

I like Multi Landy

2c = majors
2d = one major
2h = hearts and a minor
2s = spades and a minor
2n = minors
x = penalty


eta: regular landy is totally cool too, iirc Phantom Sac said it was his preferred method?
"definitely that's what I like to play when I'm playing standard - I want to be able to bid diamonds because bidding good suits is important in bridge" - Meckstroth's opinion on weak 2 diamond
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#3 User is offline   Liversidge 

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Posted 2015-August-04, 12:12

View Posteagles123, on 2015-August-04, 12:01, said:

I like Multi Landy

2c = majors
2d = one major
2h = hearts and a minor
2s = spades and a minor
2n = minors
x = penalty


eta: regular landy is totally cool too, iirc Phantom Sac said it was his preferred method?


I have been studying Multi Landy quite a lot - it is recommended on the 'No Fear' bridge site. And it uses the Unusual No Trump for the minors, which partner and I also use over a suit opener showing the two lowest unbid suits. So it builds on what we currently play. But then I came across other conventions that are supposedly easier for a novice/beginner. One is Asptro, which gets a lot of mention, but it means ditching Landy, which we have just about got under our belt, although it does not come up often enough, and we are looking for a system that deals with Mm and mm two suiters. Then there is Astro, and Aspro, and others I am sure, which I haven't looked at yet. So I thought I'd check alternatives out before making a recommendation to partner.
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#4 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2015-August-04, 12:31

View PostLiversidge, on 2015-August-04, 11:48, said:

My partner and I play Landy, but what is the best defense system for other two suited hands.

there are a host of methods available.

It may be useful to bear in mind that there is a world of difference between bidding over a strong 1N and over a weak one. Over the former, the primary goals are to compete for the partscore and to disrupt their methods. Take a look at the methods played by most pairs, and their bidding over their own string notrump will probably be the best-defined and best-played of all of their methods, so it is important to disrupt their bidding if you can do so with some safety. Otoh, when the opps open a weak 1N, game is far more probable for your side than when the 1N is strong, so you will probably benefit from methods wherein you incorporate constructive methods. As a simple example, many defences to a strong NT conceal overcaller's suit or suit. Suction does this, as an example. Multi-Landy does this with the 2D overcall and, to some extent, the 2M overcalls. This makes the opps'early decision making more difficult than if the overcall revealed the suit(s) held, but also makes advancer's job tougher as well.
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#5 User is offline   Liversidge 

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Posted 2015-August-04, 12:46

View Postmikeh, on 2015-August-04, 12:31, said:

there are a host of methods available.

It may be useful to bear in mind that there is a world of difference between bidding over a strong 1N and over a weak one. Over the former, the primary goals are to compete for the partscore and to disrupt their methods. Take a look at the methods played by most pairs, and their bidding over their own string notrump will probably be the best-defined and best-played of all of their methods, so it is important to disrupt their bidding if you can do so with some safety. Otoh, when the opps open a weak 1N, game is far more probable for your side than when the 1N is strong, so you will probably benefit from methods wherein you incorporate constructive methods. As a simple example, many defences to a strong NT conceal overcaller's suit or suit. Suction does this, as an example. Multi-Landy does this with the 2D overcall and, to some extent, the 2M overcalls. This makes the opps'early decision making more difficult than if the overcall revealed the suit(s) held, but also makes advancer's job tougher as well.

I should have said we play a weak No trump.
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#6 User is offline   neilkaz 

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Posted 2015-August-04, 12:46

View Posteagles123, on 2015-August-04, 12:01, said:

I like Multi Landy

2c = majors
2d = one major
2h = hearts and a minor
2s = spades and a minor
2n = minors
x = penalty


eta: regular landy is totally cool too, iirc Phantom Sac said it was his preferred method?


I'd recommend to pairs at your level in the UK where you'll face much weak NT to pick one of these two methods as you need a penalty double IMO.
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#7 User is offline   Liversidge 

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Posted 2015-August-04, 13:02

View Posteagles123, on 2015-August-04, 12:01, said:

I like Multi Landy

2c = majors
2d = one major
2h = hearts and a minor
2s = spades and a minor
2n = minors
x = penalty


eta: regular landy is totally cool too, iirc Phantom Sac said it was his preferred method?

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#8 User is offline   1eyedjack 

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Posted 2015-August-04, 14:05

View PostLiversidge, on 2015-August-04, 12:46, said:

I should have said we play a weak No trump.
That is not important. The important thing is the range that your opponents play.

That said, in my opinion:
Simple Landy is a huge improvement over nothing, as well as having a high ratio of benefits to complexity.
Anything else is at best only a marginal improvement over Landy, usually with an increased load on the denominator of the above ratio.

Not saying that there aren't improvements to be had, but given that you are playing Landy now, you probably have higher priorities.
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#9 User is offline   Liversidge 

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Posted 2015-August-05, 10:21

View Post1eyedjack, on 2015-August-04, 14:05, said:

That is not important. The important thing is the range that your opponents play.

That said, in my opinion:
Simple Landy is a huge improvement over nothing, as well as having a high ratio of benefits to complexity.
Anything else is at best only a marginal improvement over Landy, usually with an increased load on the denominator of the above ratio.

Not saying that there aren't improvements to be had, but given that you are playing Landy now, you probably have higher priorities.

I am probably in too much of a rush, trying to learn from every game where I have struggled to find the best bid by rushing to my references (including BBO), and often I find there is a convention that good players would use. I am not experienced enough to make good judgments as to whether I should try to adopt the convention or just (as you say) just shrug and concentrate on other priorities with higher payback vs investment potential. To make the right judgment I need to weigh up how often that type of hand/auction is likely to come up, how complicated the convention is, and what the risk / opportunity is, and that's not easy for someone at my level.

Last week I had this South hand which prompted my question:

I have only six losers if we find a fit. What should I have bid?

Thinking about what you have said, I am guessing that Landy is so highly rated vs Multi Landy because it is fairly straightforward, and it will usually be possible to find a safe resting place at the 2 level in a major, whereas Multi Landy is complicated for me (especially the responses to 2) and we could end up with a 3 level contract in a minor.
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#10 User is offline   Liversidge 

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Posted 2015-August-05, 10:42

PS: I passed. 1NT went one off. Partner had one heart, four clubs and 8 HCP, I think. We would probably have made 3. Both sides were non-vulnerable.
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#11 User is offline   1eyedjack 

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Posted 2015-August-05, 11:16

I may have been a bit fast on the draw with my earlier response.

If you find yourself habitually playing against weak 1N then defence to 1N generally has a high-ish priority simply because of its frequency.

A problem with your stated hand is that it is by no means certain that you will do better by declaring than by defending. True, you do on this occasion, provided that you find Clubs, but on another day defending would be right. if you have a mechanism for showing 2-suiters (that include a minor, where simple Landy does not), then you certainly have greater safety in your overcall, should you choose to compete, than in a method such as simple Landy which would require you to bid 2H (if not passing or doubling). As you have observed, 2H would have been a considerably worse result than defending, even if 3C is optimal. I would never overcall just to show a 5 card suit without some alternative place to play, and in that case you will need to distinguish the true single-suiters that really want to play there. But that added safety of having and announcing two places to play still does not get over the fact that defending 1N might be right.

At IMP scoring I think you just be generally content with a plus score on a partscore hand and be happy that you beat 1N. I agree that at MP it can work out a lot worse.

You are getting quite close to a double, with your stated hand. Some may even say that is right. Personally I would not double with that, but it is getting close. If partner has about a 12 count then anything short of double by you could miss game your way. But sometimes playing a weak 1N pays off.

Multi-Landy does allow you to bid on that hand, and on this occasion you get lucky and find the fit. There are other two-suiter methods, but there is not much to choose between them.
Psych (pron. saik): A gross and deliberate misstatement of honour strength and/or suit length. Expressly permitted under Law 73E but forbidden contrary to that law by Acol club tourneys.

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Masterminding (pron. mPosted ImagesPosted ImagetPosted Imager-mPosted ImagendPosted Imageing) tr. v. - Any bid made by bridge player with which partner disagrees.

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#12 User is offline   BillPatch 

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Posted 2015-August-05, 11:25

A penalty double was proper against a 12-14 NT, because you had the top of the NT range in HCP and a fairly good lead.
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#13 User is offline   phoenix214 

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Posted 2015-August-05, 11:45

I would suggest you sticking to landy - I do not like multi landy that much - it is basically the same discussion as playing a multi opening - if you like it, then sure, but if you do not, then there is 0 point to it.
Simple Landy with pen X is good enough, vs a weak NT.
Personally vs strong NT I play a form of Meckwell:
X - Majors(normal meckwell includes singlesuited minor as well)
2 minor - minor + major
2 major - natural
This is pretty simple, and gives you enough to compete.
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#14 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2015-August-05, 14:04

View PostLiversidge, on 2015-August-05, 10:21, said:



Thinking about what you have said, I am guessing that Landy is so highly rated vs Multi Landy because it is fairly straightforward, and it will usually be possible to find a safe resting place at the 2 level in a major, whereas Multi Landy is complicated for me (especially the responses to 2) and we could end up with a 3 level contract in a minor.

Landry is not highly rated by good players in NA, because it doesn't get you into the auction enough, esp against strong no trumps. I suspect it fares better against weak 1nt where concealment of overcaller's suit is less important. But I'd go with 2C Landry, 2red as transfers, 2S as minors, 2N as a good hand with a good long minor, 3 bids as preemptive with good but not solid suits

X as penalty oriented, 15+, may be shaded with a good lead. Partner is expected to pass wit as much as 4 hcp.
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#15 User is offline   karlson 

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Posted 2015-August-06, 00:53

I've been playing penalty doubles of strong NT for a couple of years now and am totally sold.
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#16 User is online   helene_t 

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Posted 2015-August-06, 01:19

Multi-landy is probably easier to learn than Apstro. But simple Landy is ok. On your given hand you did well to pass, I would probably have bid 2 which would not have ended so well with a singleton in the dummy.
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#17 User is offline   fromageGB 

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Posted 2015-August-06, 14:23

Personally I can't see the attraction of a bid that shows a given major and an unspecified minor, where you get to the 3-level on a bad fit too often. I am much happier with (as phoenix above) 2m = that minor plus an unspecified major. Now you can instantly pass a playable minor fit, or find the major at the 2-level. My 2m guarantees a 5 card major, which allows many hands that do not like the minor to escape to the major, whereas if you play that the major could be 4, you will be playing in the major much less frequently.
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#18 User is offline   Jinksy 

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Posted 2015-August-06, 16:08

I played multi-Landy for a few years and consider it inferior to regular Landy. Most of the time when you show a suit you end up playing in it at the 2 level or defending, having given the opps that bit more info about your hand.
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#19 User is offline   Liversidge 

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Posted 2015-August-07, 01:33

Thanks everyone. Your comments have been very valuable. Landy it is. The opportunity vs risk/effort of going further seems very marginal at our level.
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#20 User is offline   gwnn 

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Posted 2015-August-07, 02:46

You can try 2C=majors, 2D=bad hand with a major, 2M=opening hand with a major. I like it a lot more than multi landy (it makes more sense over a weak NT but it's also interesting against a strong NT). Another cool one is Meyerson (by awm here) where you X a strong NT on any major-minor two-suiter be it 54 45 or better (then:2C is pass/correct for the 5-card suit, 2D asks for the major whether it's 4 or 5, the rest is natural). My current favourite defence is actually the combination of the above (but you can elect to show your major instead of doubling if you wish). This is all quite simple IMO but I know it's the NB forum so feel free to disregard any or all of the foregoing.
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