[kenberg]

Since I have never played Acol and have not played four card majors or weak no trumps for a long time I am hesitant to cast a vote. Still I have both thoughts and questions.

On the first hand, 3D. Phil made the best explanation. He wants to play 3D.

On the second, I double. I wouldn't be shocked if a partner of mine had opened that hand 1H, but I wouldn't do it. Shaggy suit, scattered values, not all that much, I pass in first position.

In both cases, this seems to be a majority view.

Now a question or two about the first hand. Partners sometimes get dealt three spades. I'm thinking that with ten points or so and a decent three card holding, after 1S-(2H) partner might be doubling with reasonable but not great support for the minors? Over my 3D he can bid 3S. He knows that either I have decent values or I have shape, else I would have opened 1NT on 12-14. Would that be the way an Acol player would approach this? With fewer points and three spades, and not enough minor support to be confident of play at the 3 level in a minor, it seems that he would need to either pass or perhaps, with some shape, bid 2S? Just curious.

But anyway, for now he says we can play at the 3 level in a minor so I happily bid 3D.

[Jinksy]

kenberg, on 2015-August-08, 07:12, said:

Now a question or two about the first hand. Partners sometimes get dealt three spades. I'm thinking that with ten points or so and a decent three card holding, after 1S-(2H) partner might be doubling with reasonable but not great support for the minors?

With a min responsive hand (5-9ish) and any kind of shape he'd more likely just raise you to 2♠. With 3(433), or with a stronger balanced-ish hand he might prefer to X.

[KurtGodel]

Not adding much new stuff but:
1. 3D, p showed both minors or something approximating that, so I'm bidding something I'm likely to make.
2. I have a good hand with shortage in their suit, if only we had a bid for that sort of hand...

[helene_t]

Jinksy, on 2015-August-08, 08:18, said:

With a min responsive hand (5-9ish) and any kind of shape he'd more likely just raise you to 2♠. With 3(433), or with a stronger balanced-ish hand he might prefer to X.

I think this is backwards. With 3(433) the raise is more attractive than double because double may lead to a 4-3 fit at the 3-level. With 3244 there is a better case for double.

BTW, with 4♠4m32 and 15-16 points and no heart stopper, I think you will find four approaches:
- would have opened 1m
- rebid 2nt
- rebid 3m
- rebid 3♥

[Tramticket]

kenberg, on 2015-August-08, 07:12, said:

Since I have neveer played Acol and have not played four card majors or weak no trumps for a long time I am hesitant to cast a vote. Still I have both thoughts and questions.

On the first hand, 3D. Phil made the best explanation. He wants to play 3D.

On the second, I double. I wouldn't be shocked if a partner of mine had opened that hand 1H, but I wouldn't do it. Shaggy suit, scattered values, not all that much, I pass in first position.

In both cases, this seems to be a majority view.

Now a question or two about the first hand. Partners sometimes get dealt three spades. I'm thinking that with ten points or so and a decent three card holding, after 1S-(2H) partner might be doubling with reasonable but not great support for the minors? Over my 3D he can bid 3S. He knows that either I have decent values or I have shape, else I would have opened 1NT on 12-14. Would that be the way an Acol player would approach this? With fewer points and three spades, and not enough minor support to be confident of play at the 3 level in a minor, it seems that he would need to either pass or perhaps, with some shape, bid 2S? Just curious.

But anyway, for now he says we can play at the 3 level in a minor so I happily bid 3D.

[Tramticket]

Ken,

A 3d reply to the double guarantees a 5-card spade suit (at least under the EBU's version of Acol). So yes with invitational values and three-card support you can double first and then bid 3S over 3D. With a stronger hand and three-card support you can double and then jump to 4S over 3D.

[WellSpyder]

Jinksy, on 2015-August-06, 13:29, said:

'once you've made a decision, stick with it' [...]. Why does that principle not apply here?

PhilKing, on 2015-August-06, 15:39, said:

... now partner will not get carried away.

Exactly. Bidding on the second round rather than the first is not just about what you have learnt about the other hands and how that might affect your evaluation of your own hand, but also about what information partner will now have about your hand and how that might affect his future actions.

[kenberg]

Tramticket, on 2015-August-11, 01:27, said:

Ken,

A 3d reply to the double guarantees a 5-card spade suit (at least under the EBU's version of Acol). So yes with invitational values and three-card support you can double first and then bid 3S over 3D. With a stronger hand and three-card support you can double and then jump to 4S over 3D.

I don't know Acol so such clarifications are of interest. But, in this case, also confusing. I sometimes am dealt a hand without a five card suit, and perhaps it has 15 highs so 1NT is out. I do what over the double? If I have a heart stop I can come up with an answer, but if not? Do Acol players routinely open a 4=2=4=3 hand with 1D? Or perhaps just when the hand with that shape is too strong for 1NT? It seems that he must, else he will frequently find himself in a tough spot.

Somewhere I have an old book by Easley Blackwood in which he explains that his son was living in (maybe stationed in) London and while visiting his son he would play bridge using Acol. He explained that this system taught him to play very difficulty contracts very well.
He was joking, or if not I am.

Still, I am having difficulty seeing how this works if bidding 3D over the double promises five spades.

Anyway, this shows the difficulty of discussing bidding choices in a system that I don't know!

[Tramticket]

You are balanced? In which case you were planning to rebid No Trumps. If you have a stop you should carry on and bid 2NT over the double (I would play this as forcing to game - allowing partner to bid 3S to show a 3-card suit, or bid a minor with say 5-5 in the minors or bid 3NT with nothing else to say). Without a stop, I would cue-bid their suit as a general directional asking bid.

To be fair to Acol, it has moved on a bit since the days of Easley!

[Wackojack]

Tramticket, on 2015-August-11, 09:26, said:

You are balanced? In which case you were planning to rebid No Trumps. If you have a stop you should carry on and bid 2NT over the double (I would play this as forcing to game - allowing partner to bid 3S to show a 3-card suit, or bid a minor with say 5-5 in the minors or bid 3NT with nothing else to say). Without a stop, I would cue-bid their suit as a general directional asking bid.

To be fair to Acol, it has moved on a bit since the days of Easley!

I agree that would be the general approach with Acol. Here is a problem hand:

If your Acol style is to open 1♠, then

---

With the obvious heart lead 3N or 5♦ have no chance of making.(Almost)

If you Acol style is to open 1♦
1♦-(1♥)-?
Whatever your method of showing an invite with 5 card support and no 4 card major you wont fare any better.

Or if you play 15-17 5M
1NT-(2♥)-?


Just because Acol has a problem it doesnt mean that other systems do any better.

[Tramticket]

You have the values for game ... you don't have a major suit fit ... You have an inadequate stop in opponents' suit ...

A tricky bidding judgment problem, not a bidding system problem.

But, yes. A difficult hand

[Zelandakh]

Wackojack, on 2015-August-13, 04:24, said:

Just because Acol has a problem it doesnt mean that other systems do any better.

How about: 1♣ (nat/bal) - (1♥) - X (or 1♠ showing ♦); 2♦ - 2♥; 2♠ - 2NT; 3♥ - 4♦; P or something along these lines? You need both the right system and a lot of luck/judgement to stop on the right pinhead in hands like these. It is even more difficult if the opps decide to bump it to 3♥ quickly.