[Liversidge]

Tonight (both sides playing Acol & Weak No Trump) I had this hand:

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I bid 2 spades which went three off. I could not get across often enough to establish partner's diamonds. Partner said I should always trust partner and pass his weak takeout. Is he right? No matter how much I think about it my instinct tells me it was a good bid that went wrong on the night. Are there any circumstances when you can take out partner's takeout of 1NT.

Partner had ♦ AQJ982, ♠Q8 and nothing else, though I can't remember his exact holding in the other suits). West had ♦KT54.

[Cyberyeti]

2♠ is forcing in my book, otherwise how do you bid an 12 count with 5 spades ?

** edited text out as the OP has been fixed **

My only question is how did you go 3 off ? you appear to have 8 obvious tricks in spades.

[eagles123]

I think you were absolutely right to bid 2s, partner can have a lot of very boring hands where 4s is easy so passing 2d would be a huge mistake and your partner is resulting. If you are playing say landy and 2d/2h/2s natural over a no trump then (1n) 2d should show a good hand as it has very little pre-emptive value

[Liversidge]

Cyberyeti, on 2015-September-24, 16:40, said:

2♠ is forcing in my book, otherwise how do you bid an 12 count with 5 spades ?

A weak takeout is bid OPPOSITE a weak NT not as an overcall as in this case where it should be a better hand.

Oops! Got my terminology wrong. Thanks for that.

[Liversidge]

eagles123, on 2015-September-24, 16:53, said:

I think you were absolutely right to bid 2s, partner can have a lot of very boring hands where 4s is easy so passing 2d would be a huge mistake and your partner is resulting. If you are playing say landy and 2d/2h/2s natural over a no trump then (1n) 2d should show a good hand as it has very little pre-emptive value

We play landy.

[1eyedjack]

Doesn't seem to me that the prospects in 2D are any better than 2S.

[wank]

2s is fine. your partner is a results merchant.

[Liversidge]

Apologies everyone who has relpied. It was late last night when I did the OP. My spades were not quite as strong as I showed as we could not have gone 3 off with six solid spades. The hand was:

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My partner had just five diamonds (♦AQJT5), not six as I posted, but that shouldn't affect my decision as his overcall showed 5+ diamonds. I estimated that with seven spades in the other three hands it was reasonable to assume partner would have 1.5 spades giving an 7.5 card spade fit and reasonable to assume that partner had 5.5 diamonds giving a 6.5 card diamond fit.
I hadn't thought of the points Cyberyeti made that my bid should be reserved to show 12+ HCP and 5+ spades as otherwise there is no way of showing such holding.

[helene_t]

I think your diagram is wrong. It indicates that tesponder bid 2s but I suppose respinder passed and ovrtcallers p bid 2s?

[Liversidge]

helene_t, on 2015-September-25, 04:14, said:

I think your diagram is wrong. It indicates that tesponder bid 2s but I suppose respinder passed and ovrtcallers p bid 2s?

Still suffering from a late night, Helene!

[helene_t]

At least your typing is better than mine

[Liversidge]

helene_t, on 2015-September-25, 04:21, said:

At least your typing is better than mine

The hand is now corrected. I was hoping you would look in this morning!

[1eyedjack]

Regardless of the diminished quality of your Spade suit, if partner has only 5 x diamonds it seems even more likely that 2S is an improvement over 2D, however many down 2S goes.

Personally I tend to frown on natural overcalls over 1N that are based on just a 5 card suit. I don't mind 5 card suit overcalls where part of a systemic way of showing a two-suiter.

Personally my style with your actual hand would be to pass 2D (although I would expect a 6th Diamond as mentioned above, which would make passing more reasonable). Mainly because I think that 2S should show a more constructive hand type. But as the cards lie, and especially given that your partner chose to pass 2S, I would say that you made a good decision (a good decision being one that works out well).

[Cyberyeti]

Liversidge, on 2015-September-25, 03:56, said:

I hadn't thought of the points Cyberyeti made that my bid should be reserved to show 12+ HCP and 5+ spades as otherwise there is no way of showing such holding.

It doesn't really show 12+, that was an example, but it shows a hand that might make game opposite a hand that isn't good enough to double 1N.

[rmnka447]

It might seem counterintuitive, but against weak NTs you really need to be a little stronger to overcall than you do to overcall a strong NT hand.

If your partner had just ♦ AQJxx and ♠ Qx for values, then your partner overbid the hand. By my reckoning, your partner had to have at least an 8 loser hand and probably 9 losers if there's no secondary 4 card suit.

The reason you have to be a little stronger to overcall weak NTs is that with the reduced opening NT range, responder can have a much stronger hand. That stronger responding hand sits behind the overcaller's hand and thus has some added value in defending. With the defenders points more evenly distributed, the defense is often easier to execute because it isn't being conducted primarily out of one hand.

It occurs to me that you might think of overcalling weak NTs in this way. Consider that opener had made an unspecified minimum 1 level suit opener that forces you to overcall at the two level. Is your hand good enough to make that overcall? If not, don't make it.

I'd be surprised if many people would overcall 1 of a suit bid at the two level with ♦ AQJxx ♠ Qx and out.

One final thought -- having played weak NTs for 40+ years, I've seen innumerable good results penalty doubling people who make iffy overcalls. If you come in, you'll need to have values -- either HCP or distribution/playing tricks that protect some from big sets.

[neilkaz]

Your PD's o/c was very light, but how on earth can you go -3 in 2♠?

[kuhchung]

I think both the overcall and your advance was fine, and you were unlucky

[Liversidge]

neilkaz, on 2015-September-25, 12:33, said:

Your PD's o/c was very light, but how on earth can you go -3 in 2♠?

You are right. It must have been 2 off. It was I was reeling a bit at the end of the game - after it had gone so wrong and partner was asking why I had bid. It took a few more hands to regain my composure. I just made five spades and ♦Ace.

[Liversidge]

neilkaz, on 2015-September-25, 12:33, said:

Your PD's o/c was very light, but how on earth can you go -3 in 2♠?

You are right. It must have been 2 off. It was I was reeling a bit at the end of the game - after it had gone so wrong and partner was asking why I had bid. It took a few more hands to regain my composure. I just made five spades and ♦Ace.

[neilkaz]

Liversidge, on 2015-September-25, 15:41, said:

You are right. It must have been 2 off. It was I was reeling a bit at the end of the game - after it had gone so wrong and partner was asking why I had bid. It took a few more hands to regain my composure. I just made five spades and ♦Ace.

How did you not take 6♠ (get over ruffed at some point)?