[Stephen Tu]

IMPs, Swiss ACBL 20 VP scale.

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2♠ = almost always 3 cd support because Bergen available.

Do you do something else if vul?

[mikeh]

it's worth at least a gametry...if vul I might just bid game, but at unfavourable, I would bid clubs anyway, in case they bid 5♦. Qxx xxxx xxx Axx is a piece of cr*p that offers play for game. At both red, I would just bid 4♠

Note: I usually play that partner won't be really weak...he'd bid 1N with that. If your approach is that he could hold a soft 6 or so, then it becomes more of a guessing game, but I still think you need to make a try.

[kenrexford]

This is a really good six lose hand. In LTC, the spade lose might go away opposite three small on a 22 split, or Jxx if the queen is stiff. The heart queen is not counted but may well have value. The club holding likely is placed well. If 2S is constructive, bidding game makes sense. Not inviting makes no sense.

[rmnka447]

I'm with the others that the hand is worth an invite. RHO ♦ overcall reduces some the chance that responder has wasted values in ♦. It is a 6 loser hand, so a 3 ♣ invite seems indicated.

[phil_20686]

I think the comments in this thread are way too focused on the "how likely are we to make game question" and not focused enough on the "how likely are we to pressure the opponents into a bad decision" question. 4S seems routine for me because of the second question. If I knew for sure that the opponents werent going to bid then I wouldn't bid 4S, but this is one of those auctions where your first priority should be to give opponents the last guess. xxxx xxx xxxx Ax just makes game totally trivially. xxx JT9x QT98 Qx might go for 500 on a bad day. You cannot make a club game try, which is the one that might really help you, but with a stiff diamond you really might give either east or west a really tough decision, that a 3H or 3S bid just makes really easy.

Also, they could be cold for 4H and a 3H bid gives west an easy way to get that into the auction, that is really a huge problem with a game try approach on this particular hand.

I think you just bid 4S on this hand and I think its completely clear.

[WesleyC]

I'd bid 4S with no second option.

I would love to see an analysis of how often top pairs make 'game try' bids. My guess would be 'not very often'.

[Stephen Tu]

Thanks all for your opinions.

Now change the hand to ♠AKxxxx♥xx♦Q♣KJxx same auction. Still 4♠?

[phil_20686]

Stephen Tu, on 2015-October-14, 07:00, said:

Thanks all for your opinions.

Now change the hand to ♠AKxxxx♥xx♦Q♣KJxx same auction. Still 4♠?

Yes for me.

[ggwhiz]

As mikleh says 2♠ is not a scratchy 6 or 7 count if you play 1nt forcing although my partnership can upgrade some of the shapely ones with a 4th trump.

I'm bidding game.

[cherdano]

4S is clear with both hands in my view. Often when 4S is down it's just part against their 4D.

Meanwhile, bidding 4C is awful - it's much more likely to help opponents than partner. LHO be able to infer a double fit, or it might help her to double us in 4S, or it might just leave her the space to get a 4D in instead of having to pass or bid 5D over 4S. Otoh, it will be extremely rare that we should compete to 5S on a 6-3 fit. It's the kind of mistake players make who only think about getting their own decisions right, and not about increasing the odds that opponents will make a mistake.

[mikeh]

cherdano, on 2015-October-14, 18:15, said:

4S is clear with both hands in my view. Often when 4S is down it's just part against their 4D.

Meanwhile, bidding 4C is awful - it's much more likely to help opponents than partner. LHO be able to infer a double fit, or it might help her to double us in 4S, or it might just leave her the space to get a 4D in instead of having to pass or bid 5D over 4S. Otoh, it will be extremely rare that we should compete to 5S on a 6-3 fit. It's the kind of mistake players make who only think about getting their own decisions right, and not about increasing the odds that opponents will make a mistake.

I agree that 4C is silly. I know I mentioned bidding clubs, but I had a brain fart when I did so, thinking that I was making a gt by bidding 3C, which is of course insufficient . I think the fact that I pointed to a responding hand that would like a club gt is some evidence of that. 4C is the call one makes when one wants to invite partner to make a 5 level decision, not a 4 level one

[aguahombre]

Stephen Tu, on 2015-October-14, 07:00, said:

Thanks all for your opinions.

Now change the hand to ♠AKxxxx♥xx♦Q♣KJxx same auction. Still 4♠?

Will go for NO with that hand modification even though I would just plain bid 4S with the original. Would just bid a non-invitational 3S with your variation. I don't know why, but when I have a stiff Queen in the opponents' suit, going low seems to work out.

[gszes]

When we have good trumps (at least 9 to the AK qualifies) AND we merely need p to have a sub minimum 3334 count to make game (xxx Kxx xxx Qxxx) that looks like a decent IMP game to me so bid it. P will normally pass far too many making hands to make inviting worthwhile especially since the 3d greatly increases the probability p will have diminished wasted values there.

Changing the heart Q to the dia Q changes the equation quite a bit since there is "in practice" no totally min or sub minimum that is likely to produce game. That means bidding game outright seems like a loser in the long run. At MP I would be happy to pass but even at whiteall the call of the imp bonus beckons and I will throw out a 3h (generic) invite asking p to proceed to game if near top of 2s bid

[cherdano]

Reported without comment (except emphasis added).

mikeh, on 2015-October-12, 17:50, said:

it's worth at least a gametry...if vul I might just bid game, but at unfavourable, I would bid clubs anyway, in case they bid 5♦. Qxx xxxx xxx Axx is a piece of cr*p that offers play for game. At both red, I would just bid 4♠

mikeh, on 2015-October-15, 05:09, said:

I agree that 4C is silly. I know I mentioned bidding clubs, but I had a brain fart when I did so, thinking that I was making a gt by bidding 3C, which is of course insufficient . I think the fact that I pointed to a responding hand that would like a club gt is some evidence of that. 4C is the call one makes when one wants to invite partner to make a 5 level decision, not a 4 level one