[helene_t]

 nullve, on 2016-May-19, 11:26, said:

So everyone else thinks it's legal to pass with 12-13* hcp and 1444 while opening, say, 1♣ with 11 hcp and 4414?

I think the way to read it is that lack of strength is not allowed to be a reason for opening as the 1-level rather than passing. There are some pairs that play an 8-11 1NT opening while not opening many unbalanced 10-counts. That's ok. If they passed with balanced 12-counts, though, it would be a HUM.

[nullve]

So the following system,

1st and 2nd seat:

P = normal or 0-17 bal.
1♣ = 5+ C, unbal. or 4S4C(41)
1♦ = 5+ D, unbal. or 4H4D(41)
1M = 5+ M, unbal.
1N = 18-20 bal.
2♣+ = normal stuff

3rd and 4th seat

P = 0-7, unsuitable for 2♣+
1♣ = 8-9, any / Precision 1♣
1♦ = 10-15, no 5c major
1M, 1N = Precision
2m = 0-7, Asptro with at least 4-4
2M = 0-7, 5+M3-OM
2N = 0-7, 5+m4+Om
3♣+ = 0-7, PRE,

is not HUM?

Thx for the cognitive dissonance!

This post has been edited by nullve: 2016-May-19, 13:53

[mike777]

Passing this hand in first or second seat seems fine, of course Pard should know and agree, but I dont see a lot of issues coming up by passing.

OTOH if your style is to open 99% of 11-12 point hands then fine.

[nige1]

 nullve, on 2016-May-19, 13:12, said:

So the following system,
1st and 2nd seat:

• P = normal or 0-17 bal.
• 1♣ = 5+ C, unbal. or 4S4C(41)
• 1♦ = 5+ D, unbal. or 4H4D(41)
• 1M = 5+ M, unbal.
• 1N = 18-20 bal.
• 2♣+ = normal stuff

3rd and 4th seat

• P = 0-7, unsuitable for 2♣+
• 1♣ = 8-9, any / Precision 1♣
• 1♦ = 10-15, no 5c major
• 1M, 1N = Precision
• 2m = 0-7, Asptro with at least 4-4
• 2M = 0-7, 5+M3-OM
• 2N = 0-7, 5+m4+Om
• 3♣+ = 0-7, PRE,

is not HUM? Thx for the cognitive dissonance!

System regulations vary. But opponents are unlikely to complain when, as opener, nullve passes with 17 HCP and his partner also passes with 7 HCP

[msjennifer]

12 HCP,2 Defence tricks and 7 losers .Whats the big point ? Open 1D and over 1S rebid 2Club. Interchange the minor suit holdings and then open 1C and rebid 1NT over partners 1S.If partner bids 1NT over 1C ,then he has 4 cards in clubs and so just sign of in 2 C. If bid with these principles then at least one gets the wanted lead when opponents (LHO)buy the contract.

[mike777]

 msjennifer, on 2016-May-19, 23:51, said:

12 HCP,2 Defence tricks and 7 losers .Whats the big point ? Open 1D and over 1S rebid 2Club. Interchange the minor suit holdings and then open 1C and rebid 1NT over partners 1S.If partner bids 1NT over 1C ,then he has 4 cards in clubs and so just sign of in 2 C. If bid with these principles then at least one gets the wanted lead when opponents (LHO)buy the contract.

fair enough and yet what is the issue if you pass and pard knows you can have this hand in first or second seat?


4441 with short spades are very often crappy deals for us.
---


again I do not object with opening this piece of crap hand given that is our agreement .....but I fail to see how we will not gain often with pass with agreements.

Your argument for opening for lead is grossly overrated in first or second seat in fact you present zero evidence for your thesis.

[PhilG007]

 Zelandakh, on 2016-May-19, 10:56, said:

The closest thing to a standard in modern Acol is to open the middle suit from 4441 hands with a black singleton. There are very few that still open the suit below the singleton with short spades. There are more, myself included, who open 1♦ with a short club but 1♥ is still the mainstream way for that shape.

And the advice not to open borderline 4441 hands is not bad at all. As always though, blindly following such a ("never") rule leads to bad bridge. It is good if you are starting to question such rules and perhaps shows a little development, bad if you opened the thread to try to teach us. Which was it?

I am simply quoting from a book by a top player. He is teaching you,not me. I am only the messenger,don't shoot me

[rhm]

 nige1, on 2016-May-19, 09:04, said:

Holding a typical 4441 12 count, in 1st 2 seats, I agree with PhilG007 and Phil that it's OK to pass, hoping to double for take-out, later.

I think the whole concept that you should make opening the bidding dependent on whether you anticipate rebid problems is misguided.
A bidding system should never give you rebid problems anyway.
Instead you should have agreements how certain distributions are dealt with in the system.
For example with the actual hand and a strong notrump system I am comfortable opening this hand with 1♦ and rebidding 1NT over 1♠.
If playing weak notrumps I would open 1♦ and rebid 2♣ over 1♠ playing 5 card majors and 1♥ rebidding 2♣ playing 4 card majors.

Decide what requirements are necessary for an opening bid and stick to it.
Passing the actual hand is plain silly unless you play a strong pass system.

Rainer Herrmann.

[mike777]

ecide what requirements are necessary for an opening bid and stick to it.
Passing the actual hand is plain silly unless you play a strong pass system.





you do not understand how understanding your first statement is and how silly your second is.

[Zelandakh]

 PhilG007, on 2016-May-20, 01:52, said:

I am simply quoting from a book by a top player.

This book was first published in 1995 and the tip about 4441 hands is considerably older than that. The general sentiment is correct but it is easy to take a reasonable idea too far. Looking through the first few entries, I also noticed "You must hold two stoppers in the opponent's suit to bid NTs" and "If three suits have been bid, you must have two stoppers in the unbid suit to bid NTs", which are actually a lot further away from "standard" in 2016 than the 4441 tip. Another, "Open the weaker of two four-card minor suits", is actually against the rules of full disclosure and should certainly not have managed to make it through to the final copy (and especially the re-print) without an appropriate caveat in the text. The tactic loses some of its effectiveness when the opps are alerted to expect it! Moving on, "Keep your pre-empts pure first and second in hand" is older advice that has not stood the test of time. It is generally recognised now that first seat is an excellent time for preempting. The advice still holds true for second seat but is another example of the way bidding theory moves on and sometimes invalidates earlier wisdom.

 PhilG007, on 2016-May-20, 01:52, said:

He is teaching you,not me. I am only the messenger,don't shoot me

Well no, actually you are trying to teach us. As I have tried to tell you, you cannot learn to play bridge at a high level only from always/never rules. And I am afraid you are not a strong enough player to teach BBF members. You could learn a lot here if you were oprn to it but I have come over to realising you genuinely believe you are an advanced player and are probably not going to open your eyes to the reality of things.

Mike (an international player) already tried to tell you this. Sadly he is no longer posting here but you should at least be aware that he is a stronger player than Mendelson. When he explained to you that you are really a beginner in the grander scheme of things he did that because it is simply the truth. Think of it as tip #0, to go above all of the other "profi" tips because it is tailored specifically to you. I am sure you have the potential to be a much stronger player if you were to accept that and make the effort to learn and modernise your game. But trust me, no one here is going to take any notice of things you try to teach us.

[fourdad]

only open 12 pt hands in 1/2 seat that have a 5 card suit and you will not have a problem.

[rhm]

 Zelandakh, on 2016-May-20, 03:05, said:

the tip about 4441 hands is considerably older

I think there is a lot of prejudice and myth around 4441 distribution.

Undoubtedly you may have difficulties finding your fit, if it so happens that you show 2 suits of 4441 and your fit happens to be in the one you did not show.
That is true and happens sometimes, but rarely and passing initially does nothing to avoid this problem. It makes it worse.
What I think is pure prejudice is the believe that 4441 pattern in general is a "bad" distribution, which tends to disappoint in the play of the hand.

Let's look at the statistical facts instead:

Numerous double dummy simulations and research have not shown a marked difference between the value of 4441 and 5431 in general, and 5431 in general is considered a "good" distribution to have.
Loser count makes no difference between these 2 patterns but should take into account the combined trump length, e.g whether you have an 8 card or 9 card fit.

Holding 4441 a priory chances for an 8 card fit is 83% and for 9 card fit still a whopping 34%.
I like those odds, even though they are even higher for 5431 distribution. The respective numbers there are 86% and 39%.

For example a priory I would prefer holding 4-4-4-1 with 4-4 in the majors rather than 5-4-3-1 with 4-3 in the majors (or 5-1 in the majors) because my chances for making game are better,even though my overall trick potential is slightly lower.

Rainer Herrmann

[manudude03]

 PhilG007, on 2016-May-20, 01:52, said:

I am simply quoting from a book by a top player. He is teaching you,not me. I am only the messenger,don't shoot me

Did someone ask you to make a topic quoting Mendelson? If not, then you are not a messenger.

[PhilG007]

 Zelandakh, on 2016-May-20, 03:05, said:

This book was first published in 1995 and the tip about 4441 hands is considerably older than that. The general sentiment is correct but it is easy to take a reasonable idea too far. Looking through the first few entries, I also noticed "You must hold two stoppers in the opponent's suit to bid NTs" and "If three suits have been bid, you must have two stoppers in the unbid suit to bid NTs", which are actually a lot further away from "standard" in 2016 than the 4441 tip. Another, "Open the weaker of two four-card minor suits", is actually against the rules of full disclosure and should certainly not have managed to make it through to the final copy (and especially the re-print) without an appropriate caveat in the text. The tactic loses some of its effectiveness when the opps are alerted to expect it! Moving on, "Keep your pre-empts pure first and second in hand" is older advice that has not stood the test of time. It is generally recognised now that first seat is an excellent time for preempting. The advice still holds true for second seat but is another example of the way bidding theory moves on and sometimes invalidates earlier wisdom.



Well no, actually you are trying to teach us. As I have tried to tell you, you cannot learn to play bridge at a high level only from always/never rules. And I am afraid you are not a strong enough player to teach BBF members. You could learn a lot here if you were oprn to it but I have come over to realising you genuinely believe you are an advanced player and are probably not going to open your eyes to the reality of things.

Mike (an international player) already tried to tell you this. Sadly he is no longer posting here but you should at least be aware that he is a stronger player than Mendelson. When he explained to you that you are really a beginner in the grander scheme of things he did that because it is simply the truth. Think of it as tip #0, to go above all of the other "profi" tips because it is tailored specifically to you. I am sure you have the potential to be a much stronger player if you were to accept that and make the effort to learn and modernise your game. But trust me, no one here is going to take any notice of things you try to teach us.

Is that a challenge???? You've got it Bud The gauntlet has been thrown down Accept?!

[PhilG007]

 PhilG007, on 2016-May-20, 05:12, said:

Is that a challenge???? You've got it Bud The gauntlet has been thrown down Accept?!

Choose your weapons MPs or IMPs?

[Tramticket]

 rhm, on 2016-May-20, 03:46, said:

I think there is a lot of prejudice and myth around 4441 distribution.

Let's look at the statistical facts instead:

Undoubtedly you may have difficulties finding your fit, if it so happens that you show 2 suits of 4441 and your fit happens to be in the one you did not show.
That is true and happens sometimes, but rarely and passing initially does nothing to avoid this problem. It makes it worse.
What I think is pure prejudice is the believe that 4441 pattern in general is a "bad" distribution, which tends to disappoint in the play of the hand.

Numerous double dummy simulations and research have not shown a marked difference between the value of 4441 and 5431 in general, and 5431 in general is considered a "good" distribution to have.
Loser count makes no difference between these 2 patterns but should take into account the combined trump length, e.g whether you have an 8 card or 9 card fit.

Holding 4441 a priory chances for an 8 card fit is 83% and for 9 card fit still a whopping 34%.
I like those odds, even though they are even higher for 5431 distribution. The respective numbers there are 86% and 39%.

For example a priory I would prefer holding 4-4-4-1 with 4-4 in the majors rather than 5-4-3-1 with 4-3 in the majors (or 5-1 in the majors) because my chances for making game are better,even though my overall trick potential is slightly lower.

Rainer Herrmann

Some interesting thoughts here.

Nevertheless, the 4441 shape does often have a low Offence/Defence ratio (an ugly phrase - but everyone understands it). So there is some validity in PhilG's argument that there is no rush to enter the bidding on marginal hands - he just takes it too far (NOBODY passes a 13 count!).

The key is to continually re-evaluate through the auction, as the hand can grow if you find a fit - particularly a nine-card fit - and especially so if there is no wastage opposite the singleton.

I agree that holding 4441 with 4-4 in the majors offers great game chances. Unfortunately 4441 hands with a singleton club are particularly difficult for the Acol system.

[Cyberyeti]

 PhilG007, on 2016-May-20, 01:52, said:

I am simply quoting from a book by a top player. He is teaching you,not me. I am only the messenger,don't shoot me

No you're not, Paul was a contemporary of mine in schools bridge, and hasn't really been a TOP player since then. Better author than player.

[manudude03]

For what it's worth, I only remember having one minimum 4441 hand out of all my times on vugraph as a junior. That was a 1444 11 count with a stiff spade, and the winning call was to open, which keeps the opponents out of spades. It was opened at both tables.

[1eyedjack]

I do agree that minimum 4441 openers are a bit of a problem, to a greater or lesser extent with any broadly natural system, but I don't think that the OP reasons given really hit the spot. For example if my system is in range for a 1N rebid after a 1S response I do not fear that sequence as being a weakness in opening.

There are two main problems to address:
1) Your fit, if you have one, may be in the fourth suit after three suits have been bid naturally, which may make it hard to bring to light, and
2) Responder may place opener with a 5th card in the suit opened, particularly if he does not rebid NT. While that may not be systemically guaranteed, the assumption may be with the odds and therefore not unreasonable, should an assumption be necessary. If you lack the cards that partner assumes you to hold, that generally would not be a recipe for success.

Passing is of course not without different dangers.

In times past in some partnerships I used to get around this by using 2-level openers to show 4441 shapes. It has long been popular to include them in a multi 2D, but in those days it used to show 17+. Indeed it was considered appropriate that the "strong" options in a multi 2D should be well above normal opening strength, often due to licensing restrictions.

But we used to play (licence permitting), that 2S was a standard weak 2 in Spades, 2H was a 4H441 hand with 12-16 HCP, any singleton other than H, and 2D was a weak 2 in H, or 12-16 count 4-1-4-4, or any singleton 17+ 4441.

This method had a couple of obvious weaknesses:

1) If responder has a partial fit in Hearts and Spade length, but only moderate strength, then opposite a 2H opener there was a temptation to pass in the expectation that opener had a singleton Spade. While that is with the odds, it could fail spectacularly if responder happened to have 4 card Spade support.

2) The other main weakness was that the 2D opener provides the opponents with an easy and effective defence, when it only has one specified major in the weak option.

As against that, the 2H opener is quite difficult to defend against, and likewise interference over 2D is not without risk as the "intermediate" strength range of the 4-1-4-4 increases its frequency, where an opponent with values will normally assume, with the odds in his favour, that the 2D opener contains the weak option. I think that it is for this reason that in low tier events the strong options in the multi had to be very strong, so as to remove from a strong defender that element of doubt.

Anyway, it is has been a long time since I used to play these methods. I think that Roman Smolski used to play that 2H opener in some partnerships.

[rhm]

 Tramticket, on 2016-May-20, 05:31, said:

Nevertheless, the 4441 shape does often have a low Offence/Defence ratio (an ugly phrase - but everyone understands it).

I am not convinced this holds true.

If you look at

http://bridge.thomas...l.html#patterns

Under suit contracts (pattern has not much influence in notrump contracts):

You get for 4441 distribution: Offense 8.61 tricks and for Defense 4.85 tricks. If we look at the ration we get 1.78
The respective numbers for 5431 would be 8.68 and 4.70 or a ratio of 1.84, a difference of 0.06, hardly earth shattering.
Balanced hands have a worse ratio.

A general observation I find interesting:

The Offense / Defense ratio of distribution tends to increase with suit length.
Shortages tend to increase your trick potential in both defense and offense and therefor have not that much impact on the ratio.

So you can claim the Offense / Defense ratio is no better for 4441 than for 5332, but all else being equal you will on average make more tricks in offense and defense with 4441.
So it makes no sense in my mind to say I will open a 12 point hand holding 5332 but will pass such a hand if holding 4441. You are passing a better hand with more trick potential.

Rainer Herrmann