[Shugart23]

Partner and I began playing canapé system with strong club 1/1/16.....we pre-announce to the opponents we play canapé, weak NT, and strong club.....The question I have is when are 'natural' bids alertable ? For example, I open 1H, partner alerts and bids 1S and I respond 2C.....currently, my responder alerts the vast majority of my bids...eg..1H, alert, promises only 4 Hearts and less than 16 HCP....and 2C, alert, Clubs are longer than Hearts......since these bids are natural and we have pre-announced our system, must we alert ?

[pran]

Shugart23, on 2016-May-27, 08:16, said:

Partner and I began playing canapé system with strong club 1/1/16.....we pre-announce to the opponents we play canapé, weak NT, and strong club.....The question I have is when are 'natural' bids alertable ? For example, I open 1H, partner alerts and bids 1S and I respond 2C.....currently, my responder alerts the vast majority of my bids...eg..1H, alert, promises only 4 Hearts and less than 16 HCP....and 2C, alert, Clubs are longer than Hearts......since these bids are natural and we have pre-announced our system, must we alert ?

Very much depends on the alert regulation in force.
The only reason I can see for alerting the 1♥ opening bid is to warn your opponents that it may not be your longest suit.
Similarly the reason for alerting the 2♣ bid is that it indeed promises a longer suit.

A good rule on alerting is that if you are in doubt then do alert.

I am not sure if everybody agrees; I believe some insist that alerting a call that does not require an alert is misinformation, but my opinion is that it is never an error to alert even if it should turn out that the call does not require an alert.

[sfi]

The answer will depend on where you are playing. Typically, the default criterion for alerting is "artificial, or natural with an unexpected meaning", and then a jurisdiction will define some specific natural situations requiring alerts or artificial ones that don't.

However, it is likely that 2C guaranteeing longer clubs is a natural but unexpected meaning. Even though you tell your opponents you are playing canape before the round, you are likely to be required to continue to alert your bids properly. The purpose of announcing beforehand is to allow your opponents to discuss any required defences rather than to relieve you of your obligations during the hand.

[Shugart23]

pran, on 2016-May-27, 08:58, said:

Very much depends on the alert regulation in force.
The only reason I can see for alerting the 1♥ opening bid is to warn your opponents that it may not be your longest suit.
Similarly the reason for alerting the 2♣ bid is that it indeed promises a longer suit.

A good rule on alerting is that if you are in doubt then do alert.

I am not sure if everybody agrees; I believe some insist that alerting a call that does not require an alert is misinformation, but my opinion is that it is never an error to alert even if it should turn out that the call does not require an alert.

I live in the world of ACBL GCC....Yeah, I agree that when in doubt, go ahead and alert....I guess that is the point of my question...I would like to remove my doubt and if the rules say I don't have to alert .......

[Shugart23]

Shugart23, on 2016-May-27, 09:06, said:

I live in the world of ACBL GCC....Yeah, I agree that when in doubt, go ahead and alert....I guess that is the point of my question...I would like to remove my doubt and if the rules say I don't have to alert .......

p.s...I don't mind alerting almost every bid we make, but it is a bit cumbersome and opponents sometimes get annoyed....

[blackshoe]

I would alert a canapé rebid. I would not alert a natural initial bid, playing canapé. The reason is that the greater length of the second bid is unexpected.

[Shugart23]

blackshoe, on 2016-May-27, 09:21, said:

I would alert a canapé rebid. I would not alert a natural initial bid, playing canapé. The reason is that the greater length of the second bid is unexpected.

Thanks.....how about this bidding sequence....1H -1NT (semi forcing) -2H.........this promises 6 Hearts......obviously denies another 5 card suit.....alertable in your view ?

[mycroft]

The ACBL Alert Procedure is your friend in these cases.

Relevant snippets:

Quote

Part 1 - Natural Bids
Most natural calls do not require Alerts. If the call promises about the expected strength
and shape, no Alert is necessary. Treatments that show unusual strength or shape
should be Alerted.

Definition of expected length for natural bids for the Alert Procedure
Suit bids:
Four or more in a major for opening bids, rebids and responses

Quote

Part 5 – One- and Two-Level Opening Suit Bids, Responses and
Rebids
1♥/♠: Not Alertable if natural (four or more cards in major) and non-forcing. (Note that
canapé systems must be pre-Alerted and canapé bids must also be Alerted during the
auction.) All other meanings are Alertable.

I, and all the people I play against that play this, read this to be "not Alertable" (for either the possible canape or the limited nature of the opening).

Quote

Opener’s Rebids
A rebid in a suit that tends to be longer than the opening bid suit (canapé) requires an Alert.

Well, that's obvious.

Quote

Pre-Alert: Alerts given before the auction period begins on the first board of a round.
Things that need to be pre-Alerted include:
Systems which may be unfamiliar to opponents, such as Canapé, Superchart or
Mid-chart methods

So, there's that (also note the "very weak opening bids" should you be playing that).

Note that the GCC is irrelevant to (Pre-)Alertability, except of course that non-GCC agreements in events that allow them are Pre-Alertable.

Edit: in response to your question to blackshoe, I wouldn't Alert it (does it truly deny 1615?) - most negative inferences are not Alertable; but during the Clarification Period, I would volunteer shape information that I have from the auction that nobody that doesn't play the system would have (for instance, after 1NT-2♦; 2♥-3NT; p, I'd explain that partner is almost certain to have 5♥332 distribution, as 5-4s and 5-5s are bid a different way in Keri).

[Shugart23]

mycroft, on 2016-May-27, 09:38, said:

The ACBL Alert Procedure is your friend in these cases.

Relevant snippets:
I, and all the people I play against that play this, read this to be "not Alertable" (for either the possible canape or the limited nature of the opening).

Well, that's obvious.

So, there's that (also note the "very weak opening bids" should you be playing that).

Note that the GCC is irrelevant to (Pre-)Alertability, except of course that non-GCC agreements in events that allow them are Pre-Alertable.

Edit: in response to your question to blackshoe, I wouldn't Alert it (does it truly deny 1615?) - most negative inferences are not Alertable; but during the Clarification Period, I would volunteer shape information that I have from the auction that nobody that doesn't play the system would have (for instance, after 1NT-2♦; 2♥-3NT; p, I'd explain that partner is almost certain to have 5♥332 distribution, as 5-4s and 5-5s are bid a different way in Keri).

a 1-6-1-5 hand is opened 2H which promises atleast 5 Hearts and atleast 4 clubs).....Thanks for the info...so my take away is I don't have to alert 1H and 1S openings by my partner but I need to alert his rebid of a longer suit but NOT the rebid of his opening suit.....if I understand your comments

[kenrexford]

This is kind of funny in ACBL land. We don't alert, say, a 1♥ opening because the rules state that 4+ is expected. However, we alert a 2♣ rebid as "longer clubs" because that is unexpected.

First of all, who actually expects 4+ hearts for a 1♥ opening? Systems with 4-card major openings are very rare in the ACBL, especially among the circles who would be in need of the alert after a pre-alert.

Second, I would be willing to venture that the vast majority of the extremely few people you run into in the ACBL who open 4-card majors play canapé. Hence, it is completely illogical to expect a 4-card major without an alert but to then think that surely the 4-card opening is not a canapé opening. 50 years ago, sure. Today, though?

Third, on what planet would a canapé rebid be unexpected in the context of already telling the opponents in a pre-alert that you play canapé? Granted, a whole lot of idiots drive drunk into checkpoints, despite a public announcement of checkpoints, signs before the checkpoints, and flashing lights way in the distance. I suppose those people would be surprised, but they are drunk. How drunk do you have to be at the table to not know that 2♣ is probably longer when the opponents just told you that rebids are probably longer? If you are that drunk, the alert is pointless anyway, because you will hear it, stand up to salute the flag, and then pass out.

[ahydra]

In the EBU, Blue Book 4H2(b) says you should alert the first bid in a possible canape sequence. Seems like a pretty sensible way to do things since we don't have prealerts here.

ahydra

[johnu]

mycroft, on 2016-May-27, 09:38, said:

Quote
Part 1 - Natural Bids
Most natural calls do not require Alerts. If the call promises about the expected strength
and shape, no Alert is necessary. Treatments that show unusual strength or shape
should be Alerted.
______________________________________________________________________________

Relevant snippets:
I, and all the people I play against that play this, read this to be "not Alertable" (for either the possible canape or the limited nature of the opening).

I would say that a canape bid that shows a longer side suit is a treatment that shows unusual shape and should be alerted.

When I play Blue Team Club, I alert a 1♥ opening, and alert any possible canape rebids. In BTC, a rebid of 2♣ by the 1♥ opener may or may not be a canape bid.

As for a post auction clarification, sometimes your side doesn't declare the contract so you can't explain.

[barmar]

kenrexford, on 2016-May-27, 10:42, said:

This is kind of funny in ACBL land. We don't alert, say, a 1♥ opening because the rules state that 4+ is expected. However, we alert a 2♣ rebid as "longer clubs" because that is unexpected.

First of all, who actually expects 4+ hearts for a 1♥ opening? Systems with 4-card major openings are very rare in the ACBL, especially among the circles who would be in need of the alert after a pre-alert.

ACBL's alert requirements always seem to lag behind common agreements. Negative doubles were practically alerted for quite a while after they became ubiquitous. Practically everyone plays Jacoby Transfers, but we still announce them.

In the case of 4-card majors, I guess they don't want to alert a bid that's an honest offer to play in that suit. The length is only 1 card different from what is mostly expected.

Quote

Third, on what planet would a canapé rebid be unexpected in the context of already telling the opponents in a pre-alert that you play canapé?

All the pre-alertable agreements also require alerts when they actually come up. The purpose of the pre-alert is to allow the opponents to discuss how they plan to defend against it, the alert is to remind them that the unusual situation has actually occurred.

Furthermore, in a long match they could easily forget if the convention occurs late in the match.