[barmar]

strings11, on 2017-February-03, 06:38, said:

No reputable scientific studies have found an association between thimerosal in vaccines and autism.
(Kind of, sort of, makes you wonder what the disreputable studies say. And who conducts the DISreputable studies anyway?)

Andrew Wakefield. In 1998 he published a research paper showing the link between MMR vaccines and autism. Investigations later found that this study was fraudulent, he had financial conflicts of interest, and he'd abused some of the children involved in the study. His co-authors withdrew their support for the conclusions, and the journal retracted the paper, declared that it was "utterly false" and that they'd been deceived when it was published.

This scam paper essentially started the whole anti-vaccination movement.

[Winstonm]

barmar, on 2017-February-03, 09:55, said:

Andrew Wakefield. In 1998 he published a research paper showing the link between MMR vaccines and autism. Investigations later found that this study was fraudulent, he had financial conflicts of interest, and he'd abused some of the children involved in the study. His co-authors withdrew their support for the conclusions, and the journal retracted the paper, declared that it was "utterly false" and that they'd been deceived when it was published.

This scam paper essentially started the whole anti-vaccination movement.

Wakefield's study was totally fabricated. It is worth the same as a used piece of toilet paper and should have been treated as that. That it is even still mentioned and referenced shows the power of disinformation and propaganda.

[barmar]

Winstonm, on 2017-February-03, 10:11, said:

Wakefield's study was totally fabricated. It is worth the same as a used piece of toilet paper and should have been treated as that. That it is even still mentioned and referenced shows the power of disinformation and propaganda.

The problem may be that the official investigation into it didn't come out until more than a dozen years after the original publication. During that time the anti-vac movement grew strong, and it was too late for facts to kill it.

Not to mention that official facts are not going to sway people who believe in conspiracies. In fact, they just support their beliefs -- the investigation was obviously part of the conspiracy.

[mike777]

I tend to ignore claims of conflict of interests when it comes to studies. It is just a fact of life in science studies today.

So many studies are just hard to replicate due to time and money which is a problem. I seem to remember somewhere only about one third of research in economics and finance were able to be replicated.

As stated before I tend to put my trust in studies or research where the answer is the opposite of what was expected by those involved.

[Winstonm]

mike777, on 2017-February-03, 17:25, said:

I tend to ignore claims of conflict of interests when it comes to studies. It is just a fact of life in science studies today.

So many studies are just hard to replicate due to time and money which is a problem. I seem to remember somewhere only about one third of research in economics and finance were able to be replicated.

As stated before I tend to put my trust in studies or research where the answer is the opposite of what was expected by those involved.

Fraud is not research.

[barmar]

mike777, on 2017-February-03, 17:25, said:

I tend to ignore claims of conflict of interests when it comes to studies. It is just a fact of life in science studies today.

If conflict of interest were the only issue, that's OK. But he really did commit fraud.

Quote

So many studies are just hard to replicate due to time and money which is a problem. I seem to remember somewhere only about one third of research in economics and finance were able to be replicated.

This is a common problem in the so-called "soft" sciences like economics and psychology. It's hard to perform controlled experiments -- you can't see what would have happened in the economy if Dodd-Frank hadn't been instituted.

[Trinidad]

My son asked me today why some people didn't have their kids vaccinated. He is a cub scout leader and one of his cubs has rubella.

I told him that vaccinations work to stop the disease and, at the same time carry (very small) risks for the individual vaccinee (nice word, huh). When the disease is practically eliminated (as with rubella in the Netherlands), the very small risk for the individual from the vaccination may be larger than the risk for serious harm from getting rubella. I said that, in my estimate, we hadn't reached that point yet, but that there is such a point and that it is not far away.

I told him at the same time, that this is a matter of society over individual: Suppose every individual makes the calculation like the parents of this cub scout. They determine that the risk for side effects is higher than the risk for harm from rubella and that, therefore, they don't have their kids vaccinated. In no time, the risk for harm from rubella will be much higher for the entire population. This is a case where "my interest first" harms the entire population and I compared it to evading taxes or disregard for traffic rules (though there is no law mandating vaccination).

Rik

[olegru]

barmar, on 2017-February-03, 19:54, said:

If conflict of interest were the only issue, that's OK. But he really did commit fraud.

This is a common problem in the so-called "soft" sciences like economics and psychology. It's hard to perform controlled experiments -- you can't see what would have happened in the economy if Dodd-Frank hadn't been instituted.

Here is a letter from famous psychologist Daniel Kahneman about the issue with very well known but not replicatable researches in the social psychology
http://www.nature.co...an%20Letter.pdf
I believe it was caused by that http://blogs.discove...n/#.WJanAfkrIdV story, but it is only the tip of the iceberg.

[kenberg]

olegru, on 2017-February-04, 22:21, said:

Here is a letter from famous psychologist Daniel Kahneman about the issue with very well known but not replicatable researches in the social psychology
http://www.nature.co...an%20Letter.pdf
I believe it was caused by that http://blogs.discove...n/#.WJanAfkrIdV story, but it is only the tip of the iceberg.

Very interesting. I found the Kahneman letter to be very restrained, very even-handed, and thus very practical.

My oldest child was born in 1961 when I was 22. I recognized that I knew very little and I was ready to learn from wherever I could. I quickly found that some skepticism was very useful. Science is great. Expert advice can be very useful. Still, the best advice may be to not believe everything you are told, even if the speaker has an array of credentials after his name. We have to put it all together as best we can.

[barmar]

kenberg, on 2017-February-06, 10:21, said:

We have to put it all together as best we can.

That's the rub. If you're not an expert, you're going to be stuck just trying to figure out who to believe. You don't want to be like Buriden's ass, starving because it can't decide. The best most of us can do is assume that the mainstream concensus was reached through reasonable means, and go along with it.

People will sometimes point out that there were times in history when the mainstream viewpoint was incredibly wrong -- thousands of years ago most people (including the intelligentsia) thought Earth was flat and the center of the universe, and scientists mostly believed that the universe was filled with "luminiferous ether" until Einstein's relativity theories replaced them a century ago. Yeah, this happens, but what are you going to do, assume that we don't know anything? The scientific method mostly converges on the truth, and those incorrect viewpoints were generally assumptions that predated the technology to test them. As technology improves, so does our ability to confirm and deny assumptions.

[Jacki]

I stumbled on this while trying to find an answer to one of our players who was trying to find a place to post an obit. Curious coincidence. But my addition to the thread follows:

As a busy mother of four I never found it expedient to get a flu shot. Although all four of my kids had all the doctor prescribed inoculations required - schools at the time needed evidence that all required shots were given.

So, kids now grown and I thought one day during the fall of the year after I moved to Dallas, I should be a responsible person and get a flu shot. I did that - the first time ever.

A few days after that I came down with a curious headache. Not a migraine, just an irritant that wouldn't go away. After two weeks of this blasted headache that wouldn't go away, I picked up the phone to call my PCP to get it checked. Trouble is, it was a land line that needed to be put back in the cradle and I kept dropping it, using my right hand. Finally got it back in the cradle using the other hand and then noticed my right hand was numb. Then my arm. OMG I'm having a stroke!!!

So called 911 and told the operator, HELP, I'm having a stroke. So to cut to the chase, the ambulance took me to the ER where they determined it wasn't a stroke but didn't have a clue what was wrong as by this time my whole right side was parallelized. WTF?

Finally after a week of immobility the diagnosis was Gullian Barre syndrome as a result of a FLU SHOT!! There's more (including a clot because of immobility), but it all worked out and I am as healthy as ever but yikes that was a scary experience.

Bottom lime is, if I had to do it all over again, I doubt I would immunize my kids again and certainly pass on any pneumonia, flu or other adult preventative measures that so enrich the pharmaceutical companies. Aspirin, Tylenol (in moderation) fine, but otherwise, no thanks.

Jacki

[mike777]

jacki...aspirin etc do enrich companies...it is difficult to not enrich companies

if you wish to pass on adult preventive measures that may enrich companies....fair enough...but tough to do


I am happy very happy to hear you are doing well.

[barmar]

Jacki, on 2017-March-04, 00:41, said:

Bottom lime is, if I had to do it all over again, I doubt I would immunize my kids again and certainly pass on any pneumonia, flu or other adult preventative measures that so enrich the pharmaceutical companies. Aspirin, Tylenol (in moderation) fine, but otherwise, no thanks.

I'm really sorry this happened to you, but you have to understand that this is an exceptional situation. Nothing is perfect, and vaccines do have potential side effects. But the chance of severe side effects is generally much lower than the chance of getting the diseases they're protecting against.

"Once bitten, twice shy" is the normal emotional reaction, but it's not always the best policy.

[barmar]

BTW, I don't get flu shots, either, but not because I'm scared of them. I just don't think I need it. I'm rarely around kids, who are the biggest transmitters of germs. I live alone, and don't socialize much, except for playing bridge. I rarely even get colds, and most of the ones I've gotten have been on the way home from national bridge tournaments -- I expect that lots of germs are spread through the cards, as well as on the airplanes.

[Cyberyeti]

Jacki, on 2017-March-04, 00:41, said:

I stumbled on this while trying to find an answer to one of our players who was trying to find a place to post an obit. Curious coincidence. But my addition to the thread follows:

As a busy mother of four I never found it expedient to get a flu shot. Although all four of my kids had all the doctor prescribed inoculations required - schools at the time needed evidence that all required shots were given.

So, kids now grown and I thought one day during the fall of the year after I moved to Dallas, I should be a responsible person and get a flu shot. I did that - the first time ever.

A few days after that I came down with a curious headache. Not a migraine, just an irritant that wouldn't go away. After two weeks of this blasted headache that wouldn't go away, I picked up the phone to call my PCP to get it checked. Trouble is, it was a land line that needed to be put back in the cradle and I kept dropping it, using my right hand. Finally got it back in the cradle using the other hand and then noticed my right hand was numb. Then my arm. OMG I'm having a stroke!!!

So called 911 and told the operator, HELP, I'm having a stroke. So to cut to the chase, the ambulance took me to the ER where they determined it wasn't a stroke but didn't have a clue what was wrong as by this time my whole right side was parallelized. WTF?

Finally after a week of immobility the diagnosis was Gullian Barre syndrome as a result of a FLU SHOT!! There's more (including a clot because of immobility), but it all worked out and I am as healthy as ever but yikes that was a scary experience.

Bottom lime is, if I had to do it all over again, I doubt I would immunize my kids again and certainly pass on any pneumonia, flu or other adult preventative measures that so enrich the pharmaceutical companies. Aspirin, Tylenol (in moderation) fine, but otherwise, no thanks.

Jacki

This is a well known but very rare complication of the flu jab.

I also don't take a flu jab despite being eligible for a free one here in the UK, but I have had all the others. I assess the risk, and the chance of me getting flu I feel is quite low, hence I don't feel that a) taking a dose of vaccine away from somebody at higher risk and b) risking the side effects are worth it.

BTW obits go in the RIP thread in this forum

[Winstonm]

Jacki, on 2017-March-04, 00:41, said:

I stumbled on this while trying to find an answer to one of our players who was trying to find a place to post an obit. Curious coincidence. But my addition to the thread follows:

As a busy mother of four I never found it expedient to get a flu shot. Although all four of my kids had all the doctor prescribed inoculations required - schools at the time needed evidence that all required shots were given.

So, kids now grown and I thought one day during the fall of the year after I moved to Dallas, I should be a responsible person and get a flu shot. I did that - the first time ever.

A few days after that I came down with a curious headache. Not a migraine, just an irritant that wouldn't go away. After two weeks of this blasted headache that wouldn't go away, I picked up the phone to call my PCP to get it checked. Trouble is, it was a land line that needed to be put back in the cradle and I kept dropping it, using my right hand. Finally got it back in the cradle using the other hand and then noticed my right hand was numb. Then my arm. OMG I'm having a stroke!!!

So called 911 and told the operator, HELP, I'm having a stroke. So to cut to the chase, the ambulance took me to the ER where they determined it wasn't a stroke but didn't have a clue what was wrong as by this time my whole right side was parallelized. WTF?

Finally after a week of immobility the diagnosis was Gullian Barre syndrome as a result of a FLU SHOT!! There's more (including a clot because of immobility), but it all worked out and I am as healthy as ever but yikes that was a scary experience.

Bottom lime is, if I had to do it all over again, I doubt I would immunize my kids again and certainly pass on any pneumonia, flu or other adult preventative measures that so enrich the pharmaceutical companies. Aspirin, Tylenol (in moderation) fine, but otherwise, no thanks.

Jacki

You are misunderstanding the nature of the two types of vaccinations. Immunizations are specific to a known type of illness. Flu shots are against one or two types out of a broad range of flu varieties.

I don't get flu shots because I seem to have a strong immune system and do not get flu; however, I may get exposed to a type of flu I have no immunity to and get sick. There is that risk. At the same time, I would always vaccinate my children against measles, mumps, rubella, small pox, polio, etc., and to do otherwise is to put your children and others at risk that is preventable and can be done in near absolute safety, though there is always a small risk but that risk compared to risking the diseases prevented makes the question itself moot.

[barmar]

There's an outbreak of measles in a Minnesota county.

Quote

MINNEAPOLIS (WCCO) — Minnesota health officials say they are investigating an outbreak of measles in Hennepin County.

Hennepin County health officials say they’re working around the clock to try to reach anyone who could be impacted by the ongoing Measles outbreak.

Officials say as of April 17, there are now nine cases of measles in the county – all unvaccinated children ages 1 through 4 years.

Eight of the confirmed cases are Somali Minnesotans. The health department says that community has been targeted with misinformation about vaccine risks, so it’s working to alert families to the outbreak.

Hennepin County Public Health Epidemiology Manager Dave Johnson says all the cases in Minnesota’s recent history have originated from countries where measles is more common.

“What likely happened here is that someone came from abroad who was unvaccinated and exposed to measles and then brought that back to the United States,” Johnson said.

[mikeh]

Jacki, on 2017-March-04, 00:41, said:

I stumbled on this while trying to find an answer to one of our players who was trying to find a place to post an obit. Curious coincidence. But my addition to the thread follows:

As a busy mother of four I never found it expedient to get a flu shot. Although all four of my kids had all the doctor prescribed inoculations required - schools at the time needed evidence that all required shots were given.

So, kids now grown and I thought one day during the fall of the year after I moved to Dallas, I should be a responsible person and get a flu shot. I did that - the first time ever.

A few days after that I came down with a curious headache. Not a migraine, just an irritant that wouldn't go away. After two weeks of this blasted headache that wouldn't go away, I picked up the phone to call my PCP to get it checked. Trouble is, it was a land line that needed to be put back in the cradle and I kept dropping it, using my right hand. Finally got it back in the cradle using the other hand and then noticed my right hand was numb. Then my arm. OMG I'm having a stroke!!!

So called 911 and told the operator, HELP, I'm having a stroke. So to cut to the chase, the ambulance took me to the ER where they determined it wasn't a stroke but didn't have a clue what was wrong as by this time my whole right side was parallelized. WTF?

Finally after a week of immobility the diagnosis was Gullian Barre syndrome as a result of a FLU SHOT!! There's more (including a clot because of immobility), but it all worked out and I am as healthy as ever but yikes that was a scary experience.

Bottom lime is, if I had to do it all over again, I doubt I would immunize my kids again and certainly pass on any pneumonia, flu or other adult preventative measures that so enrich the pharmaceutical companies. Aspirin, Tylenol (in moderation) fine, but otherwise, no thanks.

Jacki

If you read up on any medication, including vaccines, you will find that everything has a potential for side-effects. Did you consider, for example, taking Tylenol for your headache? The list of side-effects is pretty scary.

You were unlucky. Give enough people a flu shot and it is certain that some of them will suffer side-effects such as you did. Give nobody flu shots and it is certain that a far larger number of people will get the flu, with all that that entails (including, every year, a number of deaths). Humans are inherently bad at intuiting statistical odds: we overestimate low probability events, especially after one occurs.

While I sympathize with what you went through, a decision to avoid preventative medicine for yourself and your family based on this episode is sort of like seeing someone struck by lightning in a storm and never going outside your house ever again. Anecdotal 'evidence' is very appealing to the human psyche, especially when we are the one telling the anecdote from direct experience, but it leads to illogical thinking. Fortunately, for your children, you had them vaccinated before your horrible experience. I hope you aren't using your experience to persuade your kids not to immunize their children.....such would be a shame, needlessly exposing them to far greater problems than you experienced. If you doubt me, look up the complications of the various diseases against which you immunized your children, and imagine your grandchildren getting sick because of your current beliefs.

[Winstonm]

mikeh, on 2017-April-19, 09:53, said:

If you read up on any medication, including vaccines, you will find that everything has a potential for side-effects. Did you consider, for example, taking Tylenol for your headache? The list of side-effects is pretty scary.

You were unlucky. Give enough people a flu shot and it is certain that some of them will suffer side-effects such as you did. Give nobody flu shots and it is certain that a far larger number of people will get the flu, with all that that entails (including, every year, a number of deaths). Humans are inherently bad at intuiting statistical odds: we overestimate low probability events, especially after one occurs.

While I sympathize with what you went through, a decision to avoid preventative medicine for yourself and your family based on this episode is sort of like seeing someone struck by lightning in a storm and never going outside your house ever again. Anecdotal 'evidence' is very appealing to the human psyche, especially when we are the one telling the anecdote from direct experience, but it leads to illogical thinking. Fortunately, for your children, you had them vaccinated before your horrible experience. I hope you aren't using your experience to persuade your kids not to immunize their children.....such would be a shame, needlessly exposing them to far greater problems than you experienced. If you doubt me, look up the complications of the various diseases against which you immunized your children, and imagine your grandchildren getting sick because of your current beliefs.

Speaking of Tylenol (acetaminophen), it is one of the most dangerous drugs in OTC use as it has devastating effects on the liver if doseage recommendations are exceeded, and the only known counter agent is something called Mucomyst, which needs to be administered within 8-10 hours of OD ingestion of Tylenol.

One risk of Tylenol OD is not realizing that many painkillers use Tylenol in combination - Lortab, for example, has 325 mg of Tylenol with it; if a person is taking 4000 mg a day of Tylenol and also taking extra Lortab as needed, say 4 a day, he is exceeding the safe doseage for Tylenol by 1000 mg.