[Liversidge]

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I has 5 losers by my reckoning so 4♠ was on even if partner was minimum, but if he had just 7 losers a slam might be on. What bid can I make that is forcing but allows for exploration?

[wank]

nothing without splintering which would be overstating your hand.

[Cyberyeti]

 wank, on 2017-January-17, 15:30, said:

nothing without splintering which would be overstating your hand.

I think I would splinter anyway, this is a great slam opposite very little providing it's in the right place, AKJxx, xx, Qx(x), xxx(x) for example.

[wank]

 Cyberyeti, on 2017-January-17, 16:09, said:

I think I would splinter anyway, this is a great slam opposite very little providing it's in the right place, AKJxx, xx, Qx(x), xxx(x) for example.

but it's also a terrible 5 level hand opposite some hands partner will be salivating over.

[Cyberyeti]

 wank, on 2017-January-17, 16:20, said:

but it's also a terrible 5 level hand opposite some hands partner will be salivating over.

not sure that's the case at all, and depends on your agreements about how you bid next.

[1eyedjack]

Leaving aside the slam hands, if partner has made a bare minimum courtesy response just to keep the bidding open, then committing beyond 3S may work out poorly. But for any other response you want to be in 4S at least, and anything short of commitment to game on your hand risks missing a reasonable game.

I take the view that a splinter raise to 4S does not promise any more values than any other response to 4S (absent special agreements and conventions, and this is the N/B forum) - it is just a descriptive bid that helps partner evaluate. So I am in the camp that would splinter.

[msjennifer]

The hand has 5 losers with a 4 card fit for spade suit.Playing the losing trick count the better bid is 3S .It will be too optimistic to use a splinter bid of 4Club because the hand has only13HCP.Change the King of Diamonds to Ace and even then 4C is not advisable as it technically does not have the required strength in the spade support.Partner may have say J10xxx,x,xxx,AJ109 and then if DA is not with RHO,4S will go Down on a Diamond Q/J lead.

[Zelandakh]

I think 3♠ is the value call here. Change the ♠Q to the king and I would prefer 4♣. It is a judgement call though and I would not fault anyone for choosing the latter.

[billw55]

 Zelandakh, on 2017-January-18, 02:46, said:

I think 3♠ is the value call here. Change the ♠Q to the king and I would prefer 4♣. It is a judgement call though and I would not fault anyone for choosing the latter.

Agree. I am also satisfied with 3♠.

[Caitlynne]

Yes, if partner has the right cards, a slam may be on, but I don't think you even have enough to force to game. That is, you need to be concerned that partner will hold wasted values in clubs. Certainly, partner often (and most often at that!) will have club honor values for his/her 1S response since your hand has no club honor values at all.

So, while partner might have responded 1S on KJxxx,xx, Qx, xxxx making a game virtually cold, or
while partner might have responded 1S on AKxxx, xx, Ax, xxxx making a slam virtually certain,
the fact remains that partner might have responded 1S on Jxxxx, x, QJx, KQJx or Jxxxx, x, Axxx, KJx too. With the former hand, game is far from certain (though will typically make); with the latter hand, game is a poor proposition. And partner's hand could easily be worse so forcing to game with your hand is very optimistic and strikes me as unjustified.

So, I think your reasonable rebid alternatives are 3S (invitational and non-forcing - the value bid that fits your hand) and 4C (a Splinter showing club shortness, 4 card spades support, and game forcing values - an overbid that will work often enough to encourage more overbidding in the future).

[Cyberyeti]

My issue with 3♠ is that partner will fail to bid game on plenty of hands where it's cold and bid it on hands where it's bad, I'd rather just bid it myself via 4♣ also giving partner the chance to better evaluate whether a slam is on.

[billyjef]

Indeed, 3 ♠ would tell a partnership that has agreed on using LTC that I have 4 ♠ and exactly 5 LTC. If partner has 10, she will pass, if she has 9 or less, she will take the appropriate action.

 msjennifer, on 2017-January-18, 01:01, said:

The hand has 5 losers with a 4 card fit for spade suit.Playing the losing trick count the better bid is 3S .It will be too optimistic to use a splinter bid of 4Club because the hand has only13HCP.Change the King of Diamonds to Ace and even then 4C is not advisable as it technically does not have the required strength in the spade support.Partner may have say J10xxx,x,xxx,AJ109 and then if DA is not with RHO,4S will go Down on a Diamond Q/J lead.

[aawk]

The choice is between 4s or a slam try.

Because you got a 5 loser hand based on shape with not a lot of points 4s is best if your p has 7 losers or better your p will do a slam try.

[ggwhiz]

There is another option for the splinter adverse like me (chews up room and endplays partner into a final decision too often)

3♦ is natural and game forcing and followed by 4♠ pinpoints the club situation. Not for the faint of heart or even indicated here but it's a (weird) consideration that might work out and find out if your partner has a sense of humour. The opponents silence so far indicates that partner may well have a pretty good hand and I will have a decent handle on how many hearts they own after this bid.

[nekthen]

Gazilli
probably right answer but wrong forum

2♣ p bids 2♦ with 8+ or something else with weak hand

[Kaitlyn S]

The problem with a 3S "value bid" is that when partner passes, you don't know whether you're taking 7 or 11 tricks. I assume you're playing IMPs and since 4 has play opposite most minimums and I can't even make 3 if partner is all clubs, I'd like to be in game. Once I've determined that, I'll bid 4S with a partner that has 'beginner' or 'novice' in his profile and no conventions listed. (This is the N/B forum.) If I am confident that partner will both understand a splinter bid and be able to evaluate his hand opposite one, I'll bid 4C.

By the way, with my regular partner, I would bid 3H (splinter that isn't forcing to game) if the clubs and hearts were reversed. While I would guess to bid a game if I can't find out how partner likes my shortness, I'm willing to invite if I'm allowed to tell partner where my shortness is.

 nekthen, on 2017-January-18, 13:33, said:

Gazilli
probably right answer but wrong forum

I almost didn't mention splinters in this forum but the horse was already out of the barn so I did. I'm hoping those that aren't ready for splinters can ignore the whole splinter discussion.

[Kaitlyn S]

I just noticed that your subtitle was "Is there a forcing bid I can make here?".

I think you are asking the wrong question. The question you want to ask yourself is "Should I be the describer or the decider?". Or perhaps "What bid will maximize the chances of getting to the best (or a decent) contract?"

On this hand, you have four-card support for partner. You know it but your partner doesn't. You should let him in on the good news ASAP. You will notice that all the respondents agreed that you should show spade support in some manner - that you describing your hand to partner was paramount. I agree. Let's pretend you do not play splinters. Every player here would tell you to bid 3S or 4S. Neither of those bids are forcing, but each of those is the best bid, in the opinion of those who chose it, to get you to your best contract. The problem with making a forcing bid (which can't be in spades) is that you will never convince your partner that you have four spades later; and if partner responded 1S on four small spades, they are probably going to try to correct any spade contract you choose (which might be OK if they correct to hearts, but it's a level higher, but they may try to correct to whatever suit you made the forcing bid in, and you certainly don't want that.)

You will do better in the auction if you always ask yourself "Where?" and "How High?" and bidding the correct contract only when you know the answer to both of those questions. If you don't know the answer to one, typically your best action is to make a bid that further describes your hand to partner in hopes that he will be able to answer both of the questions. Some people play complicated artificial relay systems where the correct question could be "How do I get the information I need?" but most natural systems have somebody that doesn't know the answer to both questions making a descriptive bid.

[eagles123]

splintering as opener should show the dogs - this is a nice hand but, in my opinion, not close to a 4c bid. 3s seems normal to me.

[helene_t]

 ggwhiz, on 2017-January-18, 11:52, said:

3♦ is natural and game forcing and followed by 4♠ pinpoints the club situation.

I don't like this. A delayed raise will often suggest 3-card support. Suppose it goes
1H-1S
3D-4D
4S
This certainly doesn't show four spades. Partner might even think that it is a cuebid that could be a singleton. If he subsequently asks for keycards you can have a misunderstanding about what suit is trumps.

Not to mention that partner might bid 5D instead of 4D.

Just raise spades. Neither 3S nor 4c is perfect but at least partner will know which suit is trumps.

[msjennifer]

I have one question.What does a splinter bid describe EXACTLY?Does it describe a four card support( undefined) AND a STRONG 6 card first bid suit plus a club singleton or void( again undefined) plus at least a second round control in the fourth suit(again undefined) ? As a responder,what hand impression will you gather from such a sequence ? Will anyone who chose to bid a splinter bid of 4C kindly give
an HONEST explanation and enlighten all who are in responders seat ?

.