[wank]

Always believe the opps in this situation so run after the penalty pass.

Passing 1h is totally normal the first time.

For me a style where you pass the north hand is lame. Double is the only alternative in my world.

[Kaitlyn S]

Winstonm, on 2017-June-17, 07:39, said:

What about the penalty pass from East? At mps, I think it better to try to improve and escape than play in the contract the opponents prefer me to play - a zero can't get any rounder.

What makes you think it's a zero? You have taken no unusual actions. Why couldn't every other action in the auction have been perfectly normal?

This reminds me of a hand in a decent field where I converted a double to penalty. A couple tricks into the play it appeared like the opponents were making their doubled partscore, but I thought my action was pretty normal and instead of giving up, I thought hard about the hand and found the only defense to stop the overtrick and got almost an average board as we were the only ones that held them to 670.

So with many partners, especially the ones who might double with North's hand, I think looking for a spade fit is optimistic. I'm pretty sure one frequent poster to these forums would double.

That being said, my favorite partner, upon being asked about her second choice to 1H, might say "Excuse myself and wait until 1H is a viable first and second choice" (and who might be the only one in the field who overcalls), I have to seriously think about pulling.

[mlbridge]

I would not overcall 1♥. ♥ suit too weak. If I had the KQ of ♥ instead of ♠, then maybe. I'm not even sure I want pard to lead ♥ in NT. ♠ may turn out to be a better lead.

Your pard should do a SOS redouble or bid 1♠. If I both 4 card ♠ and ♣, I would SOS. In this case, I would choose 1♠ or even a deceiving 1NT hoping not to be double.

[Kaitlyn S]

mlbridge, on 2017-June-17, 11:42, said:

Your pard should do a SOS redouble or bid 1♠. If I both 4 card ♠ and ♣, I would SOS. In this case, I would choose 1♠ or even a deceiving 1NT hoping not to be double.

1NT is very easy to double.

A while ago, there was an "assign the blame" thread where the auction went P P P 1D 1S P 1NT X P P P. The spade overcaller had a good suit and about 9 points, the 1NT bidder had a doubleton spade and about 9 points and a diamond stopper. The contract went for 500 NV vs NV. Almost everybody said that there was no reason to bid 1NT as the overcaller was a passed hand and there was no game - just play the 5-2 fit and be happy. 1S would not have been doubled on this hand.

I think the people dissing the 1NT advance were correct.

If you bid 1NT here after 1H has been doubled for penalties, you are certainly going to be doubled. On this hand you might save 200 points but there is no doubt that you will be doubled unless the opponents are asleep (and maybe even then.) And while you might take a diamond and four spades on this hand to only go for 300, on many hands 1NTx will be worse than 1Hx since in 1Hx partner has the opportunity to endplay the long trump hand to gain extra trump tricks, a maneuver which is quite difficult in notrump.

EDIT: As I look at the hand, you shouldn't go down less in 1NTx. Assuming clubs are 4-4, the opponents should be able to take 4 clubs, 3 diamonds, and 2 hearts before you get the lead. If somebody has a fifth club, you're down 800.

[neilkaz]

The overcall on that junk is dubious and not everyone's style. But the blame here goes to South who must display a bit of table presence and realize that the opps want to defend 1♥X. Therefore, South must make a SOS XX or as a 2nd choice try 1♠.

Of course North doesn't bid 1♠ over the balancing double so it is entirely up to South to make the move to find ♠.

[Kaitlyn S]

I think everybody is playing results here. If North doesn't have a spade fit, it's likely that any contract higher than 1H will be worse than 1H. If partner's overall is normal, opener has a normal reopening double, and responder has a normal penalty pass, then your score which might seem bad, will beat the scores of those who felt compelled to run and went for a bigger number when North didn't magically produce a spade fit.

[nige1]

MrAce, on 2017-June-17, 07:24, said:

He would have opened 1♥, he is coming from pass. If this is not a 1♥ opener for your style then he would have opened weak 2♥

I concede that the example hand is unrealistic
but the argument seems sound.

[Cyberyeti]

Nabooba, on 2017-June-17, 02:41, said:

1H is an obvious overcall.

By a passed hand yes, a non exclusive overcall by an unpassed hand some including us play as better than this

[rmnka447]

I don't think I'd bid 1 ♥ on this auction for several reasons:

o Partner has passed in 3rd seat which probably negates the possibility of having a decent 11 or so, maybe not even a decent 9-10 if partner is an aggressive bidder,

o LHO is still an unknown and could have a fairly decent hand yet not open in 2nd seat,

o If partner has a decent hand, we're still likely to have a chance to compete by balancing,

o If we are in a position to balance, we'll also likely know if the opponents have a fit implying we have one, too,

o The Heart suit is poor,

o Partner is likely to lead ♥s if we defend which I'm not sure I'd want.


But given the actual auction, I think South has to take action when West's reopening double is converted to a penalty double by East showing a ♥ stack and points. The choice would be between 1 ♠ or an SOS redouble. I think the nod goes to the latter.

[MrAce]

Guys, please! Too much debate on whether this hand should overcall 1♥ or not hijacks the topic. If N hand is not a 1♥ overcall for you, add a J or Q to make it OK to overcall. OP is interested in whether the ♠ fit can be found and if so how?
Let's just not turn this one into "pussy overcaller" vs "maniac overcaller" debate which we do in so many other topics almost everyday!

[PhilG007]

dickiegera, on 2017-June-16, 07:25, said:

---

1 Heart doubled was down 3 , -500.

Hearts were 5-1, with East having 5.

2spades makes and East/West can only make partials in NT or clubs.

Who should have introduced Spade suit? How? & When?

Thank you

This is a no brainer. NORTH should bid the spades first and ask his partner for preference.

[PhilG007]

dickiegera, on 2017-June-16, 07:25, said:

---

1 Heart doubled was down 3 , -500.

Hearts were 5-1, with East having 5.

2spades makes and East/West can only make partials in NT or clubs.

Who should have introduced Spade suit? How? & When?

Thank you

This is a no brainer. NORTH should bid the spades first and ask his partner for preference.

[jogs]

mlbridge, on 2017-June-17, 11:42, said:

I would not overcall 1♥. ♥ suit too weak. If I had the KQ of ♥ instead of ♠, then maybe. I'm not even sure I want pard to lead ♥ in NT. ♠ may turn out to be a better lead.

Bad hand, bad suit. No need to contest the auction at this time. Partner is unlikely to allow 1♦ to be passed out.

No reason for South to think 1♠ is a better contract.

Seems unlikely the 4-4 spades plays 4 tricks better than 5-2 hearts. I want to see the entire board.

[GrahamJson]

Kaitlyn S, on 2017-June-17, 13:26, said:

I think everybody is playing results here. If North doesn't have a spade fit, it's likely that any contract higher than 1H will be worse than 1H. If partner's overall is normal, opener has a normal reopening double, and responder has a normal penalty pass, then your score which might seem bad, will beat the scores of those who felt compelled to run and went for a bigger number when North didn't magically produce a spade fit.

I couldn't agree more. If as south you are going to rescue, and I don't see why you should, you may as well bid 1S as redouble. A redouble is just telling your opponents that you are in a mess and begs for a double. At least a bid of 1S sounds a little more confident.

Also, unless I had seen north's overcalls before I wouldn't feel too pessimistic as south. Not everyone who passes a TOX for penalties is loaded with trumps. Sometimes it is done reluctantly for want of a better bid. Holding two trumps, an ace and a king you have as much as partner has the right to expect. OK, you probably aren't expecting 1H to make, but one down seems not that unlikely.

[GrahamJson]

Give north Kx KQ1092 Qx xxxx and you make two spades, a diamond, a spade ruff with the 2 and at least two further trumps, maybe three if you are lucky. Or would you rather be in 2C?

[IGoHomeNow]

dickiegera, on 2017-June-16, 07:25, said:

---

1 Heart doubled was down 3 , -500.

Hearts were 5-1, with East having 5.

2spades makes and East/West can only make partials in NT or clubs.

Who should have introduced Spade suit? How? & When?

Thank you

That 1H overcall is marginal. Personally, I think its a poor bid, but I expect most of the field will make that bid automatically. The main reason it is a poor bid is that it HELPS the opponents find spades more easily because now 1S shows 5+ and double shows 4. it also warns them off of NT when hearts were a threat to them.

As for the rest of the bidding.....

South cannot bid over 1H, to do so is crazy. 1S shows a good suit and forward going values and either a re-biddable spade suit or heart tolerance. This hand has heart tolerance and nothing more beyond the smattering of values one would often find in this auction. 1S is STRICTLY a novice bid.

Once the double and conversion to penalty has happened, you are surely screwed. Using xx for rescue will be clear enough in terms of intent, but South has no idea if running is good or bad. I think a slight edge goes to xx. Not because I know a new place is better, but because my opponents may not be as eager to double if, for example, each has only 3 spades. The bottom line here is that by this point in the auction, you are already doomed. Unless the field is very strong and full of bidders who love to overcall that mess, (oxymoron?) the auction probably won't look like this
at many tables, so in the long run, choosing to sit or run won't matter much.

[Kaitlyn S]

IGoHomeNow, on 2017-June-18, 15:22, said:

Not because I know a new place is better, but because my opponents may not be as eager to double if, for example, each has only 3 spades. The bottom line here is that by this point in the auction, you are already doomed. Unless the field is very strong and full of bidders who love to overcall that mess, (oxymoron?) the auction probably won't look like this
at many tables, so in the long run, choosing to sit or run won't matter much.

Surely they can double if each of them has three spades. The opener has shown at least three spades with his reopening double. Responder knows that and I believe that the opener's side is in a forcing pass situation so it's safe for opener to pass even with a good hand. Responder with three spades doubles and the defenders lead trump so that responder will get his heart tricks.

If E-W don't play forcing passes after they've doubled for penalties, it might be harder to double you, for West (the reopening doubler) has to bid with a good hand with three spades (E-W could have an agreement that double shows a good hand now, but if they don't play forcing passes there, they are unlikely to have any agreement.)

[Winstonm]

GrahamJson, on 2017-June-18, 09:20, said:

I couldn't agree more. If as south you are going to rescue, and I don't see why you should, you may as well bid 1S as redouble. A redouble is just telling your opponents that you are in a mess and begs for a double. At least a bid of 1S sounds a little more confident.

Also, unless I had seen north's overcalls before I wouldn't feel too pessimistic as south. Not everyone who passes a TOX for penalties is loaded with trumps. Sometimes it is done reluctantly for want of a better bid. Holding two trumps, an ace and a king you have as much as partner has the right to expect. OK, you probably aren't expecting 1H to make, but one down seems not that unlikely.

A redouble does not say we're in a mess, only that we are in a mess at 1H doubled. The redouble implies a tolerance for anything but hearts, so if partner happened to have overcalled 1H on something like xxx, AQ10x, x, KJxxx, you can even play in 2C.

The only issue IMO with redouble is whether to trust RHO to have his penalty pass.

[Winstonm]

GrahamJson, on 2017-June-18, 09:31, said:

Give north Kx KQ1092 Qx xxxx and you make two spades, a diamond, a spade ruff with the 2 and at least two further trumps, maybe three if you are lucky. Or would you rather be in 2C?

Or, you might only win 3 spade tricks with a spade out.