[PhilG007]

♥

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This hand came up in a recent tournament. I opened the East hand as dealer with 1♣ as I have been

taught that when the black suits are equal in length clubs rank above spades for bidding purposes.

Partner responded 1♥ and I rebid my spades showing a black 2 suiter.. Partner then rebid 2♥

and that became the final contract which gave us a horrendous score. 4♠ being stiff .In the post

mortem partner said I should have opened the spades first thus showing a 5 card suit and the spade fit

would have been found. Was I wrong to bid the clubs first as I was taught all these years ago? What do the

experts think? I also nearly didn't open as I felt the doubleton KQ♥ was devalued.

[Cyberyeti]

2♥ is an awful bid.

Are you playing 1♣-2♥ strong or weak ?

If strong as most do in the UK, partner is showing KQJ10xx and out or similar.

As to 1♣/1♠ for the opener, everybody playing 5M opens 1♠ and quite a lot who open 4M also do. We would open this one 1♠, old style in the UK is to open 1♣.

I would bid 3♣ over 1♠ as we would be showing 5-4 unless 4144 then you can bid 3♠ and partner bids 4.

[ahydra]

Opening 1C with 5-5 blacks is outdated, 1S is preferred nowadays even if playing 4cM. You can see the problem here - you can never show your fifth spade.

2H is an unideal bid but I sympathise as there aren't many alternatives - 3H needs another heart, 2S needs another spade, 3C needs another club, too strong for 1NT, no diamond stop for 2NT.

Although KQ doubleton is not worth 5 points, the extra shape and black intermediates more than compensate. Not opening this wouldn't even be on a radar in Antarctica, let alone my own radar.

I'd bid 1S-2H; 2S-3S; 4S, where opener accepts due to extra shape and his now golden ♥KQ.

ahydra

[nige1]

PhilG007, on 2018-March-16, 16:32, said:

This hand came up in a recent tournament. I opened the East hand as dealer with 1♣ as I have beentaught that when the black suits are equal in length clubs rank above spades for bidding purposes.Partner responded 1♥ and I rebid my spades showing a black 2 suiter.. Partner then rebid 2♥and that became the final contract which gave us a horrendous score. 4♠ being stiff. In the postmortem partner said I should have opened the spades first thus showing a 5 card suit and the spade fitwould have been found. Was I wrong to bid the clubs first as I was taught all these years ago? What do theexperts think? I also nearly didn't open as I felt the doubleton KQ♥ was devalued.

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I agree with PhiG007 that there is an argument for opening 1♣ with 5-5 in the black suits -- provided that you rebid ♠ twice -- because you can usually pattern out, below the 3-level, to show your 5-5 shape
If you open 1♠, then you often have no opportunity to show your ♣s. The decision can be affected by the relative quality of the suits.

[rmnka447]

One of my local partners still insists on opening 1 ♣ with a 5-5 black suit hand. He would open the hand as you did, but would continue over 2 ♥ with 2 ♠ to clarify his holding as at least 5-5. That's what you should do if you've agreed on opening these hands 1 ♣.

Once you do so, responder's hand gets a lot better. It's got high honor 3rd in both black suits and is well worth an invitational 3 ♠ bid. Whether opener bids game or not, you'll be in the right strain making 4 when ♥ looks like making 3 is the limit.

I've told my partner that I refuse to open 5-5 black hands with 1 ♣ and will open them 1 ♠ instead. nige1 is right that sometimes you lose the ♣ suit when you do this. However, because major suit fits are so important, you don't want to be shut out of them if the opponents intervene. After 1 ♣ - (3 ♦) - P - (P) - ?, are you going to bid 3 ♠?

[gordontd]

nige1, on 2018-March-16, 17:45, said:

Because you can usually pattern out to show your 5-5 shape below the 3-level.

I think the reason for the change in the last 30 years is because this is often not true.

[Tramticket]

Cyberyeti, on 2018-March-16, 16:46, said:

2♥ is an awful bid.

This.

Which black suit to open is a matter for partnership agreement and there are pros and cons either way, but my preference is to open 1S with 5-5 in the blacks.

[FelicityR]

The problem lies with Acol bidding, bidding four card suits up the line, not to 'who's right' I feel. I can't see many American players suppressing the five card spade suit as an opening bid, and as others have said this side of the Atlantic we were taught to open 1♣ with this shape.

[pescetom]

FelicityR, on 2018-March-17, 04:07, said:

The problem lies with Acol bidding, bidding four card suits up the line, not to 'who's right' I feel. I can't see many American players suppressing the five card spade suit as an opening bid, and as others have said this side of the Atlantic we were taught to open 1♣ with this shape.

If continental Europe is also on this side of the Atlantic then may I disagree
No italian or french player would ever dream of suppressing five card spades in favour of a five card minor, whether or not bidding four card suits up the line.

[Cyberyeti]

pescetom, on 2018-March-17, 07:19, said:

If continental Europe is also on this side of the Atlantic then may I disagree
No italian or french player would ever dream of suppressing five card spades in favour of a five card minor, whether or not bidding four card suits up the line.

But Italians and French largely play 5M, I think it's most common to open 1♣ with this in a 4M system context.

[pescetom]

Cyberyeti, on 2018-March-17, 15:25, said:

But Italians and French largely play 5M, I think it's most common to open 1♣ with this in a 4M system context.

France is almost entirely 5M, although that is a comparatively recent development.
In Italy 5M is growing fast, but most elder players still play some kind of 4M and beginners are still taught it first:
none of them would dream of opening 1♣ with 5-card ♠ unless the ♣ were 6-card.

[Cyberyeti]

pescetom, on 2018-March-17, 16:23, said:

France is almost entirely 5M, although that is a comparatively recent development.
In Italy 5M is growing fast, but most elder players still play some kind of 4M and beginners are still taught it first:
none of them would dream of opening 1♣ with 5-card ♠ unless the ♣ were 6-card.

The only time I played with French partners, was 30 years ago in a bridge club in Spain and they played 5M (and made me play it when I'd never played it before).

I open 2 particular hand types 1♣, but most of them including this hand 1♠ with 5-5.

[Phil]

No one opens 1C with 55 in the blacks.

1S does not show a black 2 suiter. Most would not characterize 44 in this manner.

Still, 2H is beyond hopeless which was the root cause of the result.

Unfortunately the lesson gets lost at this point.

[pescetom]

Cyberyeti, on 2018-March-17, 16:51, said:

The only time I played with French partners, was 30 years ago in a bridge club in Spain and they played 5M (and made me play it when I'd never played it before).

France adopted 5M earlier and with more conviction than Italy, partly because their 4M systems were muddy with canape' style developments.
Although these had (and have) some afficionados in Italy, the mainstream in Rome-Naples favoured a cleaner and more radical style of "natural" 4M, with 4-card suits rigorously up the line and 5-card suits down, privileging precise description of distribution - at most they would open a 19 HCP 4♠ 4♥ in the 3-card minor, or an 11 HCP 5♠ 6♥ as 1♠ in order to be able to rebid 2♥ without giving a wholly false rever.

[gszes]

I wish I could say 1 size fits all but, like almost every aspect of bridge, my choice of opening depends on many factors.
1. The stronger I am the more likely I am to open 1c. This minimum hand should not be concerned about this factor.
2. The weaker the spade suit the more likely I am to open 1c assuming the club suit is better JTxxx AK A Qxxxx is a 1s for me. The spade suit here is above average and should not be worried about this factor.
3. AT MP I am much more likely to prefer a 1s opening since the minor suits rarely yield good results. The description sounded like it was MP favoring 1S.
4. When we are at unfavorable I prefer 1S since this might be our only chance at finding a spade fit before being barraged by the opps. We are unfavorable so 1s it is.

My factors all point to either opening 1s or no opinion. FWIW I think the 2h bid was far worse than just passing 1s (which I also hate) and IF the 1s bid showed a black 2 suiter I think 3c was a vastly superior choice to 2h. If the 1s bid did not
show a black 2 suiter than I think 2s is the best alternative (I am not a big fan of raising with 3 card support but the hand is just too strong to do much else though I could live with 1n).

[fromageGB]

pescetom, on 2018-March-17, 07:19, said:

If continental Europe is also on this side of the Atlantic then may I disagree

No, the Atlantic stretches out quite a long arm north of France, so you are definitely on the other side. Playing 5 card majors proves it.

The French have long recognised it. What is "manche" other than the sleeve of an arm of the Atlantic?

[apollo1201]

fromageGB, on 2018-March-23, 04:41, said:

What is "manche" other than the sleeve of an arm of the Atlantic?

Funnily enough in French it also stands for game like bidding game (3NT, 4M, 5m) is demander la manche, or game forcing is forcing de manche 😊

[pescetom]

apollo1201, on 2018-March-23, 07:35, said:

Funnily enough in French it also stands for game like bidding game (3NT, 4M, 5m) is demander la manche, or game forcing is forcing de manche ��

Even more funnily the same French term is used in Italy, instead of the native "partita"
Although thinking about it, trumps are also "atout" and formally a double is "contre" rather than the more plebian "contro".
Many other terms are taken from English, either literally ("board") or loosely ("score" for traveller).