[Tramticket]

 maartenxq, on 2019-June-05, 04:23, said:

At some point of the bidding you say 4 ♠. That is easy, but what to do if opponents find the 5th ♥?

Well, they are not playing in 5♥ undoubled, so either your side needs to double or bid on.

I would tend to double (showing values) and then bid 4♠. I would then allow partner to judge whether to double or bid on. Since a direct 4♠ bid over 1♥ might (will usually?) be pre-emptive, you cannot expect partner to double if you pass their 5♥.

... but then I read MikeH's post. If you jump to 4♠ immediately and then double the 5♥ competition this must indicate that you have real value and must logically suggest that you had bid 4♠ expecting to make. Partner can either pass the double of 5♥ or remove the double to 5♠ based on their holding. This is neat - I like it. The only thing that it gives up is the chance to investigate a slam (which must be low odds given that opponents have opened the bidding.

[msjennifer]

Sirs,when I had a look at the hand and the bidding I felt that a double and then a very pessimistic 2S bid is unrealistic.After RHO had shown an opening hand it is very difficult to visualise a little slam unless one has an array of some artificial bids.It is easy to visualise that if one doubles and then finds stuck over 4H,one is going to bid 4S. If playing a TOD over 2H with LEBENSOHL would not help either ,One just needs the CJ10x to score 4S.Hence ,in my personal logic,one simply bids 4S and not a TOD over 1H.(Again if LHO ,just imagine, trap- passes the TOD and partner bids a forced 2D one is back to square one.).

[mikeh]

 gwnn, on 2019-June-04, 15:23, said:

OK mikeh I was N, why is it my fault then? It's not like my partner is a forum poster and I want to rub it in. I just wanted to make sure I didn't misassess. I was especially interested in raising 3 to 4, but at the table I passed quite quickly.

I was borrowing from Michael rosenberg’s approach at bridgewinners. Some atb problems are not problems: one partner clearly did nothing wrong while the other clearly screwed up at least once, so any rational analysis would lead 100% of posters to blame one player. While one can never know the motive of the OP, one has to wonder why, given how obvious the answer was, the post was made. His notion is then when it appears that the post was made by the clearly innocent player, the inference would be that the post was made to settle an argument when there should be no argument. I see that this was not your intention and I apologize for using this approach.

[gwnn]

Fair enough. No apologies needed, his point makes sense too. I honestly was wondering if raising 3 to 4 made sense. I obviously realized that double then 2 was an underbid, but I am still a bit rusty/insecure and also I was open to feedback along the lines of "N 50%, S 120%, both players are terrible LOL".

[miamijd]

On hands like these at IMPs, you have to bid game. Maybe you go set a trick if partner is totally blank, but you can't miss games on these sorts of hands, and there is very little way for partner to know how useful his hand is going to be.

I think you have two alternatives:

1. Double then bid 4S.
2. Bid 4S directly over 1H.

I prefer X then 4S, because all partner really needs for slam is the A of spades and the K or JT of clubs. You probably won't get there if that's all he has, but at least it keeps slam alive if partner has a slightly better hand.

But a direct 4S call (followed by a X of 5H if the opponents bid that) has a lot going for it, too.

Cheers,
Mike

[sacto123]

 gwnn, on 2019-June-04, 03:55, said:

Hey, I've recently started playing live again (first time in almost 4 years) so I might be around from time to time, trying to re-adjust my brain to non-GIBs.

---

We missed an awesome game here (IMPs). ATB?

What does ATB stand for? I've searched the web and found no definition that relates to bridge.

[msjennifer]

 sacto123, on 2019-June-05, 12:17, said:

What does ATB stand for? I've searched the web and found no definition that relates to bridge.

Perhaps After Thought Bids.

[nige1]

 sacto123, on 2019-June-05, 12:17, said:

What does ATB stand for? I've searched the web and found no definition that relates to bridge.

 msjennifer, on 2019-June-05, 13:18, said:

Perhaps After Thought Bids.

• A ssign
• T he
• B lame

[PhilG007]

 gwnn, on 2019-June-04, 03:55, said:

Hey, I've recently started playing live again (first time in almost 4 years) so I might be around from time to time, trying to re-adjust my brain to non-GIBs.

---

We missed an awesome game here (IMPs). ATB?

I wouldn't make a takeout double on the South hand. I KNOW what the trump suit is going to be so I bid 4!S direct.
I'm in Game Mission accomplished. Takeout doubles should only be used when the trump suit is uncertain..
In this instance,there is no doubt which suit I want to play in ((!)

[TylerE]

Just bidding 4♠ is a joke bid Phil.

You could be odds on for slam opposite as little as xx xxxx xxxx Kxx.

[gszes]

 miamijd, on 2019-June-05, 11:13, said:

On hands like these at IMPs, you have to bid game. Maybe you go set a trick if partner is totally blank, but you can't miss games on these sorts of hands, and there is very little way for partner to know how useful his hand is going to be.

I think you have two alternatives:

1. Double then bid 4S.
2. Bid 4S directly over 1H.

I prefer X then 4S, because all partner really needs for slam is the A of spades and the K or JT of clubs. You probably won't get there if that's all he has, but at least it keeps slam alive if partner has a slightly better hand.

But a direct 4S call (followed by a X of 5H if the opponents bid that) has a lot going for it, too.

Cheers,
Mike

This is probably NOT the time to disagree with the number 2 option but sighhhhhhh here goes.
At these colors if I have 1 more spade and missing both AQ combos I would bid 4s. In this instance, with the opening bidder to my right, Kxxx of clubs and out has the making of a good looking slam. If perchance p happened to bid 3c over the x I would be hard pressed to not bid 5h (exclusion) bidding 7s if partner showed 2 keys

[Cyberyeti]

 TylerE, on 2019-June-05, 15:20, said:

Just bidding 4♠ is a joke bid Phil.

You could be odds on for slam opposite as little as xx xxxx xxxx Kxx.

Need the ♣J to be odds on but the point is valid, 4♠ is a ridiculous bid.

[mikeh]

 TylerE, on 2019-June-05, 15:20, said:

Just bidding 4♠ is a joke bid Phil.

You could be odds on for slam opposite as little as xx xxxx xxxx Kxx.

Yes, and no doubt you would have no trouble reaching slam opposite that hand. Don’t bother telling us about your brilliant auction. I won’t believe you.

[PhilG007]

 Cyberyeti, on 2019-June-05, 16:24, said:

Need the ♣J to be odds on but the point is valid, 4♠ is a ridiculous bid.

Why ridiculous?? The OP said he and his partner missed "an awesome game" Looking at the auction that
was because they underbid. The length and strength of the spade suit justifies a leap to game.

[Cyberyeti]

 PhilG007, on 2019-June-06, 13:36, said:

Why ridiculous?? The OP said he and his partner missed "an awesome game" Looking at the auction that
was because they underbid. The length and strength of the spade suit justifies a leap to game.

Because you'll miss a slam pretty frequently as 4♠ can easily be KQJ10xxxx(x) and out partner with Ax, xxxxx, xxx, KJx might think he needs all those cards and possibly more to make 4♠ rather than for the grand to be with the odds.

[mikeh]

 Cyberyeti, on 2019-June-06, 14:07, said:

Because you'll miss a slam pretty frequently as 4♠ can easily be KQJ10xxxx(x) and out partner with Ax, xxxxx, xxx, KJx might think he needs all those cards and possibly more to make 4♠ rather than for the grand to be with the odds.

Bridge is a game of percentages. Yes, bidding 4S immediately could miss a slam. However, the odds of our having a slam will be low, once RHO has opened. In essence we need RHO to have a minimum range opening and partner to hold more than his share of the missing hip, and for him to hold the right hcp. Now, obviously there are even lower percentage layouts where slam is good. However, I’d guess that slam will be good on fewer than 10% of plausible layouts.

So far , maybe still worth catering to, if there is no significant downside. But having a slam be a viable contract is not at all the same as being able to bid most of the good slams while staying low enough on the poor fits. I doubt that there would be many good slams where even an expert pair would reliably reach them, bidding without peeking at the hands.thats why I laughed at the poster who argued that 4S would miss a slam when partner has only the club king....even if one made it the club KJx, nobody is bidding slam, knowing what they were doing, unless they have a wire on the hand.

As against that, consider the benefits of an immediate 4S. Yes, it virtually gives up on slams, but in the meantime it lays a trap for the opponents, who don’t know you don’t have KQJ10xxxx and out. You may play 4S doubled, after rho reopens and Lho has nowhere to go. You may push them to the 5-level when you weren’t making, or when they go for a number greater than your game. And if they bid at the 5-level, and you double, your partner will usually do the right thing, be that bid or pass.

Plus, you will be a tough opponent.

People who ‘bid by the book’, or who are terrified that they might miss a 5% chance to bid a good slam, can look good on a bidding panel, but imo rarely win. Because bridge is a game about making winning decisions with, in most cases, imperfect information. For my money, 4S is the bridge bid, even at imps but beyond doubt at MPs, where you can pick up this hand 20 sessions in a row and get to a good slam maybe once, while creating zero problems for the opps,

[Cyberyeti]

 mikeh, on 2019-June-06, 16:48, said:

Bridge is a game of percentages. Yes, bidding 4S immediately could miss a slam. However, the odds of our having a slam will be low, once RHO has opened. In essence we need RHO to have a minimum range opening and partner to hold more than his share of the missing hip, and for him to hold the right hcp. Now, obviously there are even lower percentage layouts where slam is good. However, I’d guess that slam will be good on fewer than 10% of plausible layouts.

So far , maybe still worth catering to, if there is no significant downside. But having a slam be a viable contract is not at all the same as being able to bid most of the good slams while staying low enough on the poor fits. I doubt that there would be many good slams where even an expert pair would reliably reach them, bidding without peeking at the hands.thats why I laughed at the poster who argued that 4S would miss a slam when partner has only the club king....even if one made it the club KJx, nobody is bidding slam, knowing what they were doing, unless they have a wire on the hand.

As against that, consider the benefits of an immediate 4S. Yes, it virtually gives up on slams, but in the meantime it lays a trap for the opponents, who don’t know you don’t have KQJ10xxxx and out. You may play 4S doubled, after rho reopens and Lho has nowhere to go. You may push them to the 5-level when you weren’t making, or when they go for a number greater than your game. And if they bid at the 5-level, and you double, your partner will usually do the right thing, be that bid or pass.

Plus, you will be a tough opponent.

People who ‘bid by the book’, or who are terrified that they might miss a 5% chance to bid a good slam, can look good on a bidding panel, but imo rarely win. Because bridge is a game about making winning decisions with, in most cases, imperfect information. For my money, 4S is the bridge bid, even at imps but beyond doubt at MPs, where you can pick up this hand 20 sessions in a row and get to a good slam maybe once, while creating zero problems for the opps,

The hand you miss the slam on where it can be bid without partner holding that much is something like void, xxxxx, xxx, KJxxx where 6♣ and 6♠ are both good, and if you double, partner bids clubs to alert you to this fact. 4♠ has tactical advantages clearly, but I think the downside is too much

[mikeh]

 Cyberyeti, on 2019-June-06, 17:22, said:

The hand you miss the slam on where it can be bid without partner holding that much is something like void, xxxxx, xxx, KJxxx where 6♣ and 6♠ are both good, and if you double, partner bids clubs to alert you to this fact. 4♠ has tactical advantages clearly, but I think the downside is too much

Oh, why didn’t I think of that. Lho has 3 card support for opener much of the time, but he won’t raise, and partner will never have as many diamonds as clubs, and will have 5 of them and we can so smoothly bid to slam. Wow. That’s so obviously what will happen


I mean, advancer always has KJxxx when he bids 2C. Never, for example, x Qxxxx Jxx 8xxx, and of course, since the opps never bid in your auctions, even I could bid slam!

Really? Lol.

[msjennifer]

 mikeh, on 2019-June-06, 18:47, said:

Oh, why didn't I think of that. Lho has 3 card support for opener much of the time, but he won't raise, and partner will never have as many diamonds as clubs, and will have 5 of them and we can so smoothly bid to slam. Wow. That's so obviously what will happen


I mean, advancer always has KJxxx when he bids 2C. Never, for example, x Qxxxx Jxx 8xxx, and of course, since the opps never bid in your auctions, even I could bid slam!

Really? Lol.

Sir mikeh,may I make a polite humble suggestion" SILENCE IS GOLDEN" ,at least in this instance.. Sir,I get bored and tired when my student asks me" Miss,but what if your partner holds this and that.?" Pardon me ,but many a times one forgets (?) to remember that in a partnership game with two clever and perhaps cunning opponents one has to think much ahead as one does ,say ,in a game of cricket.,Competitive bidding is such that ones basic systems is out.Whatever you suggest ,even in life, there are many others who will not like any sensible actions that one suggests/makes and keep arguing just for the heck of it.And as I said , in such cases "SILENCE IS GOLDEN" THANKS.

[neilkaz]

South needs to bid 4♠ here,either with his 1st or 2nd or 3rd call. I somewhat prefer to bid it the first time.