[Zelandakh]

mikeh, on 2019-July-05, 14:59, said:

The idea of making a negative double makes me ill. Partner will almost always bid 2H (especially if 2H is the default bid when unable to make another descriptive call, which is a common treatment).

Now what?

It seems clear that starting with a double essentially commits us to continuing with 3♦ and 4♣. If we are not willing to go past 3NT then double has to be wrong. Whether we want to make that commitment on this particular hand is an open question but there has to be at least some hand with 4 spades and long clubs with which this is the right option.

[Fluffy]

3♣ is clear what is not clear is if we should reopen 3NT or live it there, 4♣ has a lot going for it when you can still stop in 4NT, but slam seems liek along shot when the lead is coming through partner.

[mikeh]

Zelandakh, on 2019-July-06, 09:41, said:

It seems clear that starting with a double essentially commits us to continuing with 3♦ and 4♣. If we are not willing to go past 3NT then double has to be wrong. Whether we want to make that commitment on this particular hand is an open question but there has to be at least some hand with 4 spades and long clubs with which this is the right option.

No! When one doubles and then forces to game via a cuebid, one will, in all methods with which I am familiar, be denying a hand that could have made a forcing 3C bid.

Say the auction goes 1H (2D) x (P) 2H (P)

3D is now either a probe for 3N or the start of a slam try in hearts. Note that we do not have a forcing heart raise in this auction....and maybe with say, AQJx Kxx xx AQxx we might choose the negative double. I spent all of 5 seconds making that hand up, so please don't debate whether this hand warrants a double or an immediate cue...I happen to think that opposite Kxxx AQJxx Kx xx I'd rather play a spade slam (by partner) than a heart slam, fwiw.

So if we do want to raise hearts and create a force, we have to bid 3D over 2H. Then 4C is a cuebid in support of hearts. One cannot bid intelligently, imo, if the first time one shows one's 6 card suit, with a good hand, is at the 4-level, as one's 3rd call!

With a good hand and long clubs, with or without spades, one starts with 3C. All other approaches (assuming one is not playing negative free bids) lead to insoluble problems if partner makes an inconvenient call.

[HardVector]

So, tell me, after the auction: 1h-(2d)-X-(p)-2n-(p)-3d, what does 3d show/ask? If it denies a club holding, then what have you got? That was the whole gist of my previous post that I'm guessing you didn't read entirely.

[mikeh]

HardVector, on 2019-July-09, 20:10, said:

So, tell me, after the auction: 1h-(2d)-X-(p)-2n-(p)-3d, what does 3d show/ask? If it denies a club holding, then what have you got? That was the whole gist of my previous post that I'm guessing you didn't read entirely.

I read your entire post. Please explain how, over 2D, you know that partner will bid 2N?

And, of course, having made a negative double, you are unlimited in hcp, tho constrained on shape, so 3D is simply a force, with doubt about either strain or level.

However, the need to plan the auction is why double is silly.

[HardVector]

mikeh, on 2019-July-09, 22:10, said:

I read your entire post. Please explain how, over 2D, you know that partner will bid 2N?

And, of course, having made a negative double, you are unlimited in hcp, tho constrained on shape, so 3D is simply a force, with doubt about either strain or level.

However, the need to plan the auction is why double is silly.

I guess you failed to read where I detailed what I would do for all the probable continuations. You still didn't try to give a meaning to the sequence I highlighted.