[straube]

All white imps. This hand deals...

AKQJx AQ9x Jxx x

1C* 3C* P* 3D* ?

1C is 16+
3C shows diamonds or majors
P tends to deny 8 hcps
3D is pass or correct

[foobar]

straube, on 2019-December-01, 13:54, said:

All white imps. This hand deals...

AKQJx AQ9x Jxx x

1C* 3C* P* 3D* ?

1C is 16+
P tends to deny 8 hcps
3C shows diamonds or majors
3D is pass or correct

Likely makes game opposite xxxx Jxxx xx xxx. Partner won't bid past 3♠ with that hand, but seems like a 5-loser hand must take some positive action, and opposite a better hand we might have even more. On a bad day, LHO will have the majors and we'll go down, but perfectly willing to pay off to worst case -500 in the very improbable 3♠-X.

[awm]

It’s basically the same problem as Pass-3♦ weak and you hold KQJxx AQ9x Jxx x. I don’t think it’s obvious what to do here but it feels to me like at least some of the hands that make game will find a balancing double and some of the hands that raise to game will not have much play, so I’d go with pass here.

I agree that foobar’s example hand passes it out but game seems pretty optimistic opposite that hand (it could easily go three rounds of diamonds with an over ruff on the third, or one of the heart king-ten could be offside, or you could just have trouble getting to dummy to take two heart finesses, etc).

Or partner has xx Jxx xxx KQxxx and you have no real play for anything despite the relative max.

[FelicityR]

It's a nice hand but partner's still got a second bid to make - though what any second bid would show is open to question? I prefer pass here because occasionally you will get 'gazumped' playing a strong ♣ system and guessing that partner has enough values to warrant game is exactly that: a guess.

You have shown your values on your opening bid. If partner has anything of note they have an opportunity to re-open. You still may end up in a rather horrible contract. C'est la vie.

p.s. I forwarded this forum entry to my son (who's more experienced than me) and who plays Precision regularly, and he said that with three cards in the opponents' presumed suit ♦s he would be very cautious despite the solid ♠s. Pass 10 points; 3♠ 7 points.

[akwoo]

I'm passing, assuming:

1) 1C is 17+ if balanced

2) Partner wouldn't have passed with xxxx Kxxx x Kxxx - even though that's less than 8.

Without assumption 2 in particular, I would have to think harder about 3S.

[helene_t]

akwoo, on 2019-December-02, 01:56, said:

I'm passing, assuming:

1) 1C is 17+ if balanced

2) Partner wouldn't have passed with xxxx Kxxx x Kxxx - even though that's less than 8.

Without assumption 2 in particular, I would have to think harder about 3S.

IMHO p might have passed with that hand but he will double 3d now.

[akwoo]

helene_t, on 2019-December-02, 03:51, said:

IMHO p might have passed with that hand but he will double 3d now.

Yes, true, but I do have a secondary implication in mind - if partner would have doubled the first time with xxxx Kxxx x Kxxx, then pass followed by double could include something like xxxx xxxx x Kxxx (or possibly even xxxx xxxx - xxxxx), whereas including both hands in pass followed by double is hard to play.

[foobar]

akwoo, on 2019-December-02, 16:41, said:

Yes, true, but I do have a secondary implication in mind - if partner would have doubled the first time with xxxx Kxxx x Kxxx, then pass followed by double could include something like xxxx xxxx x Kxxx (or possibly even xxxx xxxx - xxxxx), whereas including both hands in pass followed by double is hard to play.

How do people treat hands like xxxx Kxxx x Kxxx over say 1♣ (16+) - (3♦) natural? Does X create a GF or it is just takeout shape with GI+ values?

[kuhchung]

foobar, on 2019-December-03, 22:37, said:

How do people treat hands like xxxx Kxxx x Kxxx over say 1♣ (16+) - (3♦) natural? Does X create a GF or it is just takeout shape with GI+ values?

I play takeout