[phoenixmj]

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We play Flannery - so that means that if I have 5h and 4s - I will open 2D and NOT 1 heart unless my point range would trigger a second bid showing spades (a reverse). Consequently, if I open 1 heart and my point range matches Flannery, I do not have 4 spades and my partner's bid of 1S in virtually all circumstances guarantees 5 Spades. At least that is our partnership understanding.

So, i opened 1 heart (denying 4 spades) and partner responded 1 spade - showing 5 spades and a minimum of 6 points - no upper limit.

I now look at my hand and need to come up with a bid that will show a good hand, support and spades, and my partner is unlikely to pass.

We have a fit in spades so i look at my LTC and it is 5. If partner has a 9 or better LTC, we should be in game. If we have a slam - I don't want to shut down the bidding. Since my partner bid I am assuming that his LTC is 9 or better.

Is there anyway I can make a bid below game that is forcing to game? A jump shift shows 19 plus points for us, and I am short of that.

As always - any help is appreciated.

[Stephen Tu]

I think with 1S promising 5, a 3S rebid is pretty normal with something like this.
Some notes on your thinking:

• I don't think you necessarily want to force to game. Say partner has like Ace fifth of spades and the king of clubs. You are off 2 diamonds and a club off the top, a third diamond can be lost if DJ is offside or they have diamond ruff, and you still have to pick up the trumps for no losers. 3S is plenty IMO.
• Unadjusted LTC is close to useless as an evaluation method IMO. You say your KJx AKQxxx Qxx x is "5 losers". But AJx AKQxxx Axx x is also "5 losers"??? To me these hands are obviously not equal, and you want to bid more (something that is GF, e.g. 4c spl, or jump shift 3d intending to support spades next) with the 2nd hand than the first.
• If you use a modified LTC scale that matches closer to reality, as previous posts from Zelandakh have explained, all you are really doing is using a different HCP + distribution point scale that arguably overvalues distribution a bit too much. You might as well just use std HCP and distributional bonuses and mentally adjust fractionally for good/bad features.
• You seem to be under the conception that if someone bids game (e.g. 1h-1s-4s), that this "shuts down the bidding". This is *NOT* the case. A 4S bid in this context would tend to imply a semi-balanced 19-21 count or so, typically 4-5-2-2, or maybe something with a stiff A/K that didn't want to splinter in a minor and possibly cause partner to devalue honors in that suit too much. Game bids don't shut down the bidding opposite unlimited hands. If you have 13 points for the 1S bid instead of 6, and partner unexpectedly jumps to 4S, this is not a signoff (how can it be signoff, when you can have the rest of the HCP in the deck?), you obviously bid on. The game bid here is a description of what is held, not a signoff. Game bids are signoffs when partner has *limited* their hand like if they had opened a NT bid or rebid NT at some point or bid something or the other that slotted their hand into some narrowish range. They are not signoffs when partner can still have 2 aces more than their minimum previously promissed.

[FelicityR]

As strange as it sounds, you need some sort of responder 2♣ checkback where 1NT is never to play by opener. If responder is promising 5+ ♠s, if you have 5332 shape and a minimum hand as opener, at least you are offering doubleton support at worse. With any 5431 hand and no support for responder, you can bid the second suit. With these 6331 hands and limited 3 card support for responder, it could be clarified precisely on the second bid.

StephenTu has outlined how difficult it is to clarify hands with 3 card support. If you use Flannery to open hands with 5♥/4♠, then you should have a 'checkback gadget' in your bidding arsenal where a 1NT rebid is forcing by opener after a 1♥ - 1♠ auction being either natural or artificial.

[ahydra]

If I wanted to force to game I would bid 4C (splinter), but I think the hand is not quite worth that. I'd bid 3S.

ahydra

[phoenixmj]

FelicityR, on 2019-December-18, 13:31, said:

As strange as it sounds, you need some sort of responder 2♣ checkback where 1NT is never to play by opener. If responder is promising 5+ ♠s, if you have 5332 shape and a minimum hand as opener, at least you are offering doubleton support at worse. With any 5431 hand and no support for responder, you can bid the second suit. With these 6331 hands and limited 3 card support for responder, it could be clarified precisely on the second bid.

StephenTu has outlined how difficult it is to clarify hands with 3 card support. If you use Flannery to open hands with 5♥/4♠, then you should have a 'checkback gadget' in your bidding arsenal where a 1NT rebid is forcing by opener after a 1♥ - 1♠ auction being either natural or artificial.

We play xyz - but we have not had an understanding that 1NT in this sequence would be forcing 1 round. I think we may change that.

I read the analysis by StephenTu - and I have to start adjusting my LTC. I have been rather sloppy for that.

IN this case - we bid the game, made 6. However - if the lead was on the other side, we should not make 6 as east held 2 aces. The hand makes both 5 hearts and 5 spades as it turns out. WE were the only team in 4 spades. It is easier to make 6 because the lead comes from the other side. It is also unlikely that someone would lead 2 unsupported aces when we were in 4 - but in 6 you would expect that to be set. So, it turned out to be an advantage being in spades played from south, instead of 4 hearts played by north.

I have always played that my bid of 4 spades would show 19-ish points. I was obviously short of the mark but the hand felt stronger than it was.

[phoenixmj]

ahydra, on 2019-December-18, 17:05, said:

If I wanted to force to game I would bid 4C (splinter), but I think the hand is not quite worth that. I'd bid 3S.

ahydra

technically - we had not yet agreed on a suit. Would a jump to 4c imply willingness to play in spades? Just curious.

[Stephen Tu]

4c absolutely agrees spades. It is possible that this should guarantee 4 trumps, perhaps with 3 only go through the 3d then support spades route which implies more of a 3541 shape but playing with mostly natural system you don't get to precisely describe exact shapes.

The reason it agrees spades is that without spades, holding a club suit, opener had the options of bidding 2c or 3c. Since 3c is a forcing jump shift, there is no need for 4c to show any type of hand not containing spade support (in general bid one level higher of a natural forcing bid is usu splinter, also logically you don't want to bypass 3nt not having a known major to play in).

[johnu]

phoenixmj, on 2019-December-18, 17:28, said:

technically - we had not yet agreed on a suit. Would a jump to 4c imply willingness to play in spades? Just curious.

In modern bidding, what else could 4♣ be if not support for spades with shortness in clubs? Natural? With a weak hand, you would rebid 2♣. With a game force, you would rebid a strong jump shift 3♣. So 4♣ as natural (is it forcing or nonforcing?) is not needed.

[Stephen Tu]

Quote

I have always played that my bid of 4 spades would show 19-ish points. I was obviously short of the mark but the hand felt stronger than it was.

4S does show 19+ pts, but typically in a flatter hand with more HCP. You don't want to do this with a small stiff club, because showing a stiff club can be the key to reaching thinner HCP slams when partner has a magic xxx/Axx type holding in clubs and working points. So with a stronger hand with still the stiff club you either splinter or jump shift diamonds and raise spades which shows the stiff club indirectly.

Your actual hand is stronger than its raw HCP (15), because of the useful distribution, good 6 bagger side suit, but probably not quite enough to FG. 3S shows ~16-18 support points, your hand is close to the top end of that, so it's a max for that range, but prob not quite enough for stronger action.

[miamijd]

If 1S shows 5, then I agree with others that 3S is about right here. You aren't quite good enough to insist on game. In addition to the modifications to LTC that Stephen discussed, remember that LTC is geared toward nine-card 5/4 trump fits. With eight-fits (or even with 6-3), it doesn't work as well.

If you had enough to force game (let's say the Qd were the Ad), you would need to choose among (1) 4s (not good, that should be balanced or semi-balanced), (2) 3D and then support spades or (3) 4C (I think this should show four pieces, not three). My choice would be (2) -- yes, that suggests four diamonds, but we can't have everything, now can we?

Cheers,
Mike

[msjennifer]

Sir.the way I understood is mainly the worry about the quality of spade suit responder has.We too play Flannery convention and hence I personally suggest the solution.Since you have decided to play in spades and that too 4S (and certainly why should you not?) a Precision like bid of 3S (And comparable to OGUST bid of 2NT(over a weak 2H/S opening) may prove useful. It enables the responder to describe his hand in FIVE (in this particular hand Four since you have the SK ) steps to describe his hand fully.The values in remaining two suits be considered only if ACE or King, is a possible agreement. And just by the way the opener has only a FIVE losers hand the way WE use the LTC which the ropener guarantees by this 3S bid.( I have read the full book on modified LTC by RK and adapt it our way).THANKS

[PhilG007]

From the information you have given,I would rebid 3♠ on the hand you gave. Your opening bid denied four spades but the jump rebid shows a very good 3 card
suit. In addition,the knowledge that you have a spade fit means you can add points for your singleton club,bringing the total to 17 hcps. So a jump response inviting game
in spades is justified. If partner is bare minimum for his bid,he will pass and the hand will be played in a spade part score..

[miamijd]

PhilG007, on 2019-December-20, 14:22, said:

From the information you have given,I would rebid 3♠ on the hand you gave. Your opening bid denied four spades but the jump rebid shows a very good 3 card
suit. In addition,the knowledge that you have a spade fit means you can add points for your singleton club,bringing the total to 17 hcps. So a jump response inviting game
in spades is justified. If partner is bare minimum for his bid,he will pass and the hand will be played in a spade part score..

The opening bid did NOT deny 4 spades if the hand was too good for a 2D opener. So 3S can show either 3 or 4 spades. An example of a hand with 4 pieces that would bid 3S is something like:

AKxx
AKxxx
Qx
xx

So 3S here can show 3 or 4 pieces. Yet another reason I hate Flannery.

Cheers,
mike