[TylerE]

 AL78, on 2020-June-25, 12:37, said:

It is simple to remember and allows you to get into the bidding with any two suited hand of suitable playing strength, if you use 2NT for the minors.

I would like to play multi-Landy and have suggested it to a couple of partners, but there is a lot to remember after the initial overcall, and it is hard to practice it because it hardly ever comes up.

Frankly I think that plain vanilla Landy (X = Pen, 2♣ = Majors, followed by 2♦=No Preference, 2♦+ natural) is better than 95% of what people play against NT. The big thing is using 2c for the majors...with 2d available as no preference, you can (and arguably) should do it with 5-4, or even 4-4 if you're really aggressive.

Especially at matchpoints I think you lose very little by not being to show two suiters including a minor. You always end up playing those at the 3 level anyway, which is just poison.

[johnu]

 A Nunemake, on 2020-June-25, 13:52, said:

Why are the same hands repeated over and over. I started playing in March and I’ve play the exact same hand as many as half a dozen times!

Are you getting better results than the 1st time?

[AL78]

 TylerE, on 2020-June-25, 21:50, said:

Frankly I think that plain vanilla Landy (X = Pen, 2♣ = Majors, followed by 2♦=No Preference, 2♦+ natural) is better than 95% of what people play against NT. The big thing is using 2c for the majors...with 2d available as no preference, you can (and arguably) should do it with 5-4, or even 4-4 if you're really aggressive.

Especially at matchpoints I think you lose very little by not being to show two suiters including a minor. You always end up playing those at the 3 level anyway, which is just poison.

Multi-Landy is just a step up from that, with 2♦ showing one of the majors, and 2♥/♠ showing five of that suit and four of a minor. It allows more opportunity to compete at the cost of not being able to immediately show a major. It is the second round bids I haven't got nailed down yet.

I have played Astro for years, because I learnt it a long time ago and almost everyone I have played with knows it. My main problem with it is it seems to be a good way of getting a bottom by going off in a seven card fit when we could have taken 1NT off. Might be better to play that the anchor suit has five.

[Zelandakh]

 AL78, on 2020-June-26, 03:56, said:

Multi-Landy is just a step up from that, with 2♦ showing one of the majors, and 2♥/♠ showing five of that suit and four of a minor. It allows more opportunity to compete at the cost of not being able to immediately show a major. It is the second round bids I haven't got nailed down yet.

I have played Astro for years, because I learnt it a long time ago and almost everyone I have played with knows it. My main problem with it is it seems to be a good way of getting a bottom by going off in a seven card fit when we could have taken 1NT off. Might be better to play that the anchor suit has five.

Asptro is actually a good defence and even sees play at international level. Funnily enough, one of its drawbacks compared with Multi-Landy is regarded as being complexity.

For Multi-Landy, one set of follow-ups would be:-

2♣
... - 2♦ = relay, equal length or constructive
... - ... - 2♥ = longer/better hearts
... - ... - ... - 2♠ = 4+♠, INV
... - ... - ... - 2NT = relay
... - ... - ... - ... - 3♣ = min
... - ... - ... - ... - ... - 3♦ = relay
... - ... - ... - ... - others = max
... - ... - ... - 3m = nat, constrtuctive
... - ... - ... - 3♥ = 3+♥, INV
... - ... - 2♠ = longer/better spades
... - ... - ... - 2NT = relay
... - ... - ... - ... - 3♣ = min
... - ... - ... - ... - ... - 3♦ = relay
... - ... - ... - ... - others = max
... - ... - ... - 3m = nat, constructive
... - ... - ... - 3♥ = 4+♥, INV
... - ... - ... - 3♠ = 3+♠, INV
... - 2M = preference
... - 2NT = pick a minor (NB: standard Landy uses this as a forcing relay akin to 2♦ followed by 2NT in this structure)
... - 3m = to play
... - 3M = PRE
2♦
... - 2M = pass/correct
... - 2NT = relay
... - ... - 3♣ = max with ♥
... - ... - 3♦ = max with ♠
... - ... - 3M = min with M
... - 3m = nat, constructive
... - 3M = pass/correct
2♥
... - 2♠ = nat, constructive
... - 2NT = relay
... - ... - 3m = min with m
... - ... - 3♥ = max with ♣
... - ... - 3♠ = max with ♦
... - 3♣ = pass/correct
... - 3♦ = 3+♥, INV+
... - 3♥ = PRE
2♠
... - 2NT = relay
... - ... - 3m = min with m
... - ... - 3♥ = max with ♣
... - ... - 3♠ = max with ♦
... - 3♣ = pass/correct
... - 3♦ = constructive with hearts
... - 3♥ = 3+♠, INV+
... - 3♠ = PRE
--

There are plenty of alternatives though - most, for example, just play 2NT as asking for the minor over a 2M overcall and accept the resulting issues on constructive hands. It does help here if you also play Multi+Muiderberg for your openings, as you can use the same follow-ups to reduce memory issues.

[nullve]

 AL78, on 2020-June-26, 03:56, said:

Multi-Landy is just a step up from that, with 2♦ showing one of the majors, and 2♥/♠ showing five of that suit and four of a minor. It allows more opportunity to compete at the cost of not being able to immediately show a major. It is the second round bids I haven't got nailed down yet.

Not necessarily true if X = PEN, because you can no longer separate all of

* 6+ M
* 5M4+m
* 4M5+m

using only the 2♦ and 2M overcalls.

Btw, in Norway, what is meant by 'Multilandy' is typically

(1N)-?:

X = penalty
2♣ = both majors
2♦ = long major, could be 5M4+m
2M = 4(+)M5+m
2N = both minors.

 AL78, on 2020-June-26, 03:56, said:

[Multilandy] allows more opportunity to compete at the cost of not being able to immediately show a major. It is the second round bids I haven't got nailed down yet.

No, there is not a single hand type that is suitable for Multilandy (with or without X as PEN) but not any of the Astro-like defences. And the cost of not being able to show the major immediately should be negligible if you know how to play Multi 2♦.

 AL78, on 2020-June-26, 03:56, said:

I have played Astro for years, because I learnt it a long time ago and almost everyone I have played with knows it. My main problem with it is it seems to be a good way of getting a bottom by going off in a seven card fit when we could have taken 1NT off. Might be better to play that the anchor suit has five.

Before doing anything more drastic, how about

* switching to Asptro (in terms of handling major 2-suiters: Astro/Cappelletti/DONT < Asptro < Landy/Mohan/Multilandy)
* not overcalling with 4M5m22 (worse than 4M5m(31) if cross-ruffs are needed)

?

[Zelandakh]

One more thought, if you like both Asptro and Multi-Landy, there is a defence that combines the two together. It is designed as a SNT defence, hence no penalty double, but ought to be playable nonetheless:-

X = 4+♥; either 4♥5+m, or ♥+♠ with longer/better ♠, or ♥+♦+♣
2♣ = 4+♠; either 4♠5+m, or ♥+♠ with longer/better ♥, or ♠+♥+♦
2♦ = ♥ or ♠
2♥ = 5♥4+m
2♠ = 5♠4+m
2NT = ♣+♦
3m = nat
--

[AL78]

 Zelandakh, on 2020-June-26, 05:02, said:

Asptro is actually a good defence and even sees play at international level. Funnily enough, one of its drawbacks compared with Multi-Landy is regarded as being complexity.

For Multi-Landy, one set of follow-ups would be:-

2♣
... - 2♦ = relay, equal length or constructive
... - ... - 2♥ = longer/better hearts
... - ... - ... - 2♠ = 4+♠, INV
... - ... - ... - 2NT = relay
... - ... - ... - ... - 3♣ = min
... - ... - ... - ... - ... - 3♦ = relay
... - ... - ... - ... - others = max
... - ... - ... - 3m = nat, constrtuctive
... - ... - ... - 3♥ = 3+♥, INV
... - ... - 2♠ = longer/better spades
... - ... - ... - 2NT = relay
... - ... - ... - ... - 3♣ = min
... - ... - ... - ... - ... - 3♦ = relay
... - ... - ... - ... - others = max
... - ... - ... - 3m = nat, constructive
... - ... - ... - 3♥ = 4+♥, INV
... - ... - ... - 3♠ = 3+♠, INV
... - 2M = preference
... - 2NT = pick a minor (NB: standard Landy uses this as a forcing relay akin to 2♦ followed by 2NT in this structure)
... - 3m = to play
... - 3M = PRE
2♦
... - 2M = pass/correct
... - 2NT = relay
... - ... - 3♣ = max with ♥
... - ... - 3♦ = max with ♠
... - ... - 3M = min with M
... - 3m = nat, constructive
... - 3M = pass/correct
2♥
... - 2♠ = nat, constructive
... - 2NT = relay
... - ... - 3m = min with m
... - ... - 3♥ = max with ♣
... - ... - 3♠ = max with ♦
... - 3♣ = pass/correct
... - 3♦ = 3+♥, INV+
... - 3♥ = PRE
2♠
... - 2NT = relay
... - ... - 3m = min with m
... - ... - 3♥ = max with ♣
... - ... - 3♠ = max with ♦
... - 3♣ = pass/correct
... - 3♦ = constructive with hearts
... - 3♥ = 3+♠, INV+
... - 3♠ = PRE
--

There are plenty of alternatives though - most, for example, just play 2NT as asking for the minor over a 2M overcall and accept the resulting issues on constructive hands. It does help here if you also play Multi+Muiderberg for your openings, as you can use the same follow-ups to reduce memory issues.

Thanks, that looks like the version I have seen and noted down. I can't quite remember all the 2NT followups through logical rules, so need to practice it, which is difficult when it comes up once in a blue moon.

[AL78]

 nullve, on 2020-June-26, 05:47, said:

No, there is not a single hand type that is suitable for Multilandy (with or without X as PEN) but not any of the Astro-like defences. And the cost of not being able to show the major immediately should be negligible if you know how to play Multi 2♦.

I meant there is more opportunity to come in playing Multi-Landy than playing standard Landy, because there are more hand shapes that can be shown. I like the look of Multi Landy over Astro because of its ability to immediately show both majors.

[TylerE]

You lose majorly by not being able to show the major suit directly. PUN INTENDED.

There are basically 3 hand types I care about being able to show against a NT... one major/both majors/penalty double.

I want to be able to show those hands directly, so partner can compete directly and confidently.

Multilandy is NOT an improvement.