[dsLawsd]

 Left2Right, on 2020-June-28, 10:46, said:

Eddie Kantar⁽¹⁾ reminds us that using 4NT (RKCB) is a no-no when you yourself are staring at neither the queen nor the jack of trump unless the partnership has a known 10-card or better fit.

Accuracy in your slamming abilities will be MIA until you adopt two methods.

• knowing how many trumps one partner or the other promises.
  
• knowing how to cue bid controls to the point where both partners realize there is insufficient trump quality to proceed to a slam.

* The 2/1 system (strictly observed) will accomplish the first.
* Uncle Eddie's little tome cited below will provide the second.

Absolutely is that and more. If partners work that whole book a whole new world emerges, but definitely not for the timid. It is those fine understandings and inferences that make for top class bidding (knowing that some times nothing works). perhaps ACOL needs a new revision to handle hands like this. Here also the logic of the auction showing a potential fine double fit would help and instead of RKCB try a minor suit Q followed if necessary by a show of spade support.

Cheers.

Charles A. Lee

(1) Kantar, Eddie. Roman Keycard Blackwood, The Final Word. print. Master Point Press. Toronto. 5th Ed. 2008. page 11.

[Cyberyeti]

One thing that occurs to me is to use a bid that we don't use for this type of hand. Since 1♠-2♥-2N is GF and unlimited in weak NT Acol, what is 1♠-2♥-3N ? For us where 2N can be unbalanced I see no downside, not sure what others use this for.

[Tramticket]

 Cyberyeti, on 2020-June-29, 01:33, said:

One thing that occurs to me is to use a bid that we don't use for this type of hand. Since 1♠-2♥-2N is GF and unlimited in weak NT Acol, what is 1♠-2♥-3N ? For us where 2N can be unbalanced I see no downside, not sure what others use this for.

For us:
2NT rebid after 2-over-1 = 15-18 Balanced (or maybe a general forcing bid e.g. on a hand too strong for 1♠-2♥-4♥)
3NT rebid after 2-over-1 = 19-20 Balanced (we are relaxed not having the space to look for a major when we are this strong)
2NT Opening 21-22 (we used to include this strength in our multi, but we now prefer to play a weak-only multi)
2♣ Opening then 2NT = 23-24


Edit: the problem with "1♠-2♥-2N is GF and unlimited in weak NT Acol" is that the range becomes too great - what strength do you need to invite slam after a 2NT rebid?

[AL78]

 Tramticket, on 2020-June-29, 03:44, said:

For us:
2NT rebid after 2-over-1 = 15-18 Balanced (or maybe a general forcing bid e.g. on a hand too strong for 1♠-2♥-4♥)
3NT rebid after 2-over-1 = 19-20 Balanced (we are relaxed not having the space to look for a major when we are this strong)
2NT Opening 21-22 (we used to include this strength in our multi, but we now prefer to play a weak-only multi)
2♣ Opening then 2NT = 23-24


Edit: the problem with "1♠-2♥-2N is GF and unlimited in weak NT Acol" is that the range becomes too great - what strength do you need to invite slam after a 2NT rebid?

I don't have that problem with this partner. We play 5 card majors, weak NT, and have other bids to show 19+ HCP balanced hands, so 1♠ - 2♥ - 2NT would be the equivalent of a strong NT hand.

[miamijd]

One reason you make a mess of slam bidding is that you play ACOL (SAYC has the same issue). If you don't play 2/1 or a big club system, you have no good way to force game at a low level so that you can then explore slam. You end up having to make jump bids that take up way too much room, sometimes put you in the wrong strain, and end up in a guessing game.

Notice how much easier it is with 2/1:

1S 2H
2S(1) 3S(2)
4C(3) 4D(4)
4NT 5D
5S(5)

(1) You can also bid 3H here - it's the same auction after 3S
(2) Having 1/2 round control in one or both minors (else 4S)
(3) non-serious slam try; club control
(4) diamond control
(5) Well, we're off an Ace and the Q of trump, so let's hope we make 5

You end up in the right strain. One level higher than optimal, but at least 5S makes.

Cheers,
Mike

[Cyberyeti]

 Tramticket, on 2020-June-29, 03:44, said:

Edit: the problem with "1♠-2♥-2N is GF and unlimited in weak NT Acol" is that the range becomes too great - what strength do you need to invite slam after a 2NT rebid?

Well we play good 19-21 bal for 2N, so if balanced it's not so bad.

We just bid up the line and develop the auction fairly naturally then one of us will bid 4N over 3N if we have too much to go quietly, and if we play there we'll have at least 30 points so it should make.