[pilun]

Today I had this problem:
Aggressive partner opened 3♣ in first seat, nil vul, matchpoints.

I had:
♠AK85 ♥ AQT765 ♦KQJ8 ♣--

I bid 3NT for one off when 4♥ would have made.
I chose 3NT because I wanted to avoid the likely: 3♣ - 3♥ - 4♣.

This is the question:
If I bid 3♥, is partner ALLOWED to bid 4♣?
If not, does 3♠ show something in spades, or just most hands with a stiff heart?
Is that a common "expert" treatment?
If that is the case, what would 3NT by opener show?

TIA

[paulg]

No agreements are perfect after a pre-empt and you are not always going to find the best spot, so you have to be prepared for some disappointment. I also feel that I should know what 'expert standard' is, but I don't although I will share my agreements.

After 3X - (Pass) - 3Y - (Pass), the opener can either show support for my suit or bid three no trump. This means that even 4X shows support. This treatment might help with your hand, but also means that you will often wrong side three no trump.

Many do play different methods over a 3♣ pre-empt, using 3♦ to ask for 3-card majors that allows an immediate 3♥/3♠ to show a 6+ suit.

But bidding over a pre-empt is often a lottery for everyone, which is why people pre-empt as it affects the opponents twice as often.

[mcphee]

the main issue is understanding what a 3 level bid indicates. to bid 3N with no C in your hand has to be a losing option as partner source of tricks is eliminated forcing you to rely on your hand only. For me I never have an outside A or K for a fist of second seat 3 level opening. This makes me think that I could still have a shot to make 4H however if partner has at least 2H as its likely he will provide a ruffing value. give him the death ish 3 bid of 7-2-2-2 and even a trump led gives you some hope.

[nullve]

 pilun, on 2020-November-01, 01:47, said:

I had:
♠AK85 ♥ AQT765 ♦KQJ8 ♣--

14 cards

[Vampyr]

 pilun, on 2020-November-01, 01:47, said:

Today I had this problem:
Aggressive partner opened 3♣ in first seat, nil vul, matchpoints.

I had:
♠AK85 ♥ AQT765 ♦KQJ8 ♣--

I bid 3NT for one off when 4♥ would have made.
I chose 3NT because I wanted to avoid the likely: 3♣ - 3♥ - 4♣.

This is the question:
If I bid 3♥, is partner ALLOWED to bid 4♣?
If not, does 3♠ show something in spades, or just most hands with a stiff heart?
Is that a common "expert" treatment?
If that is the case, what would 3NT by opener show?

TIA

Of course partner is “allowed” to bid 4♣.

[Cyberyeti]

 mcphee, on 2020-November-01, 10:18, said:

the main issue is understanding what a 3 level bid indicates. to bid 3N with no C in your hand has to be a losing option as partner source of tricks is eliminated forcing you to rely on your hand only. For me I never have an outside A or K for a fist of second seat 3 level opening. This makes me think that I could still have a shot to make 4H however if partner has at least 2H as its likely he will provide a ruffing value. give him the death ish 3 bid of 7-2-2-2 and even a trump led gives you some hope.

What a 3 level bid means to you is irrelevant I wouldn't dream of NOT opening QJ1098xx and a Kx(x) with a 3 bid, but what matters here is what "aggressive" means in the OP, whether it just means it can be weak, or offshape or have side suit cards.

The hand given is 464 ie 14 cards, so this doesn't help, if you have 6 hearts, then 3♥ looks normal, I don't like bidding 3♥ if it's actually 4540 but may have to.

[pescetom]

 paulg, on 2020-November-01, 02:16, said:

Many do play different methods over a 3♣ pre-empt, using 3♦ to ask for 3-card majors that allows an immediate 3♥/3♠ to show a 6+ suit.

There is a lot to be said for conventional methods over CHO's 3m pre-empt, particularly if 4m is Namyats or whatever.
We play a convention (attributed by partner to Bob Hamman, I trust he is right) that has the advantage of working similarly over both minors.
3♦ (if available) asks partner to show a side suit he stops (3NT = ♦), 3♥/♠ asks for support in the named suit:
3NT = 2-card with high honour
4♣ = no support
4♦ = 3-card with no high honour
4♥/4♠ = 3-card with high honour.
3NT is to play, a simple raise of minor is interdictive and something else coherent with your other agreements is RKCB.

Works fine except on Friday

[Bad_Wolf]

3♥ is normal. A well trained partner will not go past 3NT without support. A simple method after 3x-3y is...
3NT shortage in y
4x doubleton support no shortage
4y doubleton support with shortage
new suit is 3 support and shortage

[sfi]

 Bad_Wolf, on 2020-November-01, 16:06, said:

3♥ is normal. A well trained partner will not go past 3NT without support. A simple method after 3x-3y is...
3NT shortage in y
4x doubleton support no shortage
4y doubleton support with shortage
new suit is 3 support and shortage

This looks reasonably standard, although opener might also bid 3NT with a doubleton but a poor hand for suit play. But a new suit response should initially be considered a choice of games between responder's suit and 3NT. It does not suggest opener's suit is in the picture. Of course responder may have a different plan, but we can find that out next round.

[Cyberyeti]

 Bad_Wolf, on 2020-November-01, 16:06, said:

3♥ is normal. A well trained partner will not go past 3NT without support. A simple method after 3x-3y is...
3NT shortage in y
4x doubleton support no shortage
4y doubleton support with shortage
new suit is 3 support and shortage

So what do you expect partner to do with QJ109xxxx and out with a void in the suit bid ? do they have to open 4 or pass ?

[pilun]

Apologies. 4-5-4-0

Take 3♥ - 3♠ - ?

Looks like a common treatment is to rebid 3NT on any hand with 0-1 ♠s.
Okay, though wrong-siding is a concern.

Another issue is vulnerability. I might open 3♥ on a 6-carder. If I happen to have my bid for once, say 1-7-3-2 and a good suit, partner may not know whether to remove 3NT.

[sfi]

 Cyberyeti, on 2020-November-01, 17:08, said:

So what do you expect partner to do with QJ109xxxx and out with a void in the suit bid ? do they have to open 4 or pass ?

You bid 3NT and hope your hand fits in with partner's plan. It's not that far out of normal expectations.

[Cyberyeti]

 sfi, on 2020-November-01, 17:33, said:

You bid 3NT and hope your hand fits in with partner's plan. It's not that far out of normal expectations.

And 3N/4M -several when partner takes a rosy view when 4/5♣ was cold is spectacularly stupid, partner has no winning action that he's likely to take unless he has game in his own hand

[johnu]

 Cyberyeti, on 2020-November-01, 14:30, said:

The hand given is 464 ie 14 cards, so this doesn't help

5-6-5-0, 16 cards is much better. You are pretty much guaranteed to fit in one of your suits.

[sfi]

 Cyberyeti, on 2020-November-01, 17:50, said:

And 3N/4M -several when partner takes a rosy view when 4/5♣ was cold is spectacularly stupid, partner has no winning action that he's likely to take unless he has game in his own hand

That's certainly a possibility, but you have much less information about the hand than your partner does. Once you preempt you should generally not be overruling partner's decision - if you feel the need to do so then it's likely your initial action was wrong.

[gszes]

partner has warned us about the danger of proceeding with our hand. I would not venture a bid over 3c unless I felt I was within 1 trick of game in my own hand (or better) OR i felt the 4 level was safe in partners preempted suit. Since the above hand meets neither of those requirements I pass and hope 3c can make OR the crazy opps cannot stand passing 3c and back in for a sizeable penalty:)))

[nige1]

Pilun "I bid 3NT for one off when 4♥ would have made. I chose 3NT because I wanted to avoid the likely: 3♣ - 3♥ - 4♣. This is the question: If I bid 3♥, is partner ALLOWED to bid 4♣? If not, does 3♠ show something in spades, or just most hands with a stiff heart? Is that a common "expert" treatment? If that is the case, what would 3NT by opener show?"
++++++++++++++++++++
Pilun raises interesting questions. I rank
1. 3N = NAT. Practical kludge.
2. 3♥ = NAT. Even if partner is forbidden to bid above 3N without ♥ tolerance, this suit seems a bit weak.
3. Pass = Worth consideration at MPs.
After 3♣ - 3♥, perhaps the partnership could agree ...
- 3N = NAT. ♠ stop. At best ♥ tolerance.
- 3♠ = ART. No ♠ stop. No ♥ Fit.
- 4♣ = NAT. ♥ tolerance.
- 4♥ = NAT. ♥ support. No enthusiasm.
- 4♦ = ART. Good hand in support for ♥.

---

[Cyberyeti]

 sfi, on 2020-November-01, 17:53, said:

That's certainly a possibility, but you have much less information about the hand than your partner does. Once you preempt you should generally not be overruling partner's decision - if you feel the need to do so then it's likely your initial action was wrong.

Except he doesn't have more information a lot of the time, with the given hand, something pure like xx, x, xxx, KQJ10xxx 5♣ is very decent if they can't engineer a diamond ruff, but if the hand is more like Qxx, x, 10x, AKxxxxx, 3N is the spot You can tell him you have no outside cards and a club suit that doesn't fear his void by bidding 4♣, which is how we use it to give him the info he needs. If he wanted to be in 3N/4♥ without consulting us, he could just bid it. If he wants to be in 4♥ if we have a doubleton, 3N if we don't, that's the time to bid 3♥, also if he wants to keep 5♣ in the frame if we're pure.