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Preempt or something else?

#1 User is offline   pilowsky 

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Posted 2021-May-23, 21:23


This hand came up in the Club yesterday (IMPs).
I was making up a four at the last table and agreed to play partner's card.
EW was playing some sort of multi-everything and East opened 2H - meaning spades and hearts 'weak'.
I bid 2NT which was passed out for 2N+1 and -3
Is there a "rule of table 17" where you can open without points?
Or is this a reasonable preempt?


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#2 User is offline   TylerE 

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Posted 2021-May-23, 22:06

Looks fine to me if that's their style. You don't specify what jurisdiction.

The 2NT bid shows at least an ace less. Your partner should still probably raise but 2N is the grossest bid of the 3.
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#3 User is offline   mw64ahw 

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Posted 2021-May-24, 00:50

The original Ekren 2 bid opened at least 4-4 in the majors with 3-10 points with something like Jxxxx Qxxx so point wise the above opening isn't lacking

Against the 2 Ekren style opening I play the following defence
X-4+/19+hcp
2-Both minors
2NT-15-18hcp
3m-6+ natural
3M-6+ Int+
3NT-Long running minor type

In this case X should elicit a 2 response and lead to either 3NT/4

Did West lead a major or s?
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#4 User is offline   pilowsky 

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Posted 2021-May-24, 02:52

View Postmw64ahw, on 2021-May-24, 00:50, said:

The original Ekren 2 bid opened at least 4-4 in the majors with 3-10 points with something like Jxxxx Qxxx so point wise the above opening isn't lacking

Against the 2 Ekren style opening I play the following defence
X-4+/19+hcp
2-Both minors
2NT-15-18hcp
3m-6+ natural
3M-6+ Int+
3NT-Long running minor type

In this case X should elicit a 2 response and lead to either 3NT/4

Did West lead a major or s?

Thanks
I'm not allowed to post the link to the hand here because it comes from another site.
the Q was led and I made an easy 2NT+1.
Without interference, others found a nice 4S.


non est deus ex machina; även maskiner behöver lite kärlek, J'ai toujours misé sur l'étrange gentillesse des robots.
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#5 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2021-May-24, 03:23

View Postpilowsky, on 2021-May-24, 02:52, said:

Thanks
I'm not allowed to post the link to the hand here because it comes from another site.
the Q was led and I made an easy 2NT+1.
Without interference, others found a nice 4S.


I'd probably have overcalled 3N and hated it, 2N is 15-18 ish and you're way too good for that
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#6 User is offline   mw64ahw 

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Posted 2021-May-24, 03:40

View Postpilowsky, on 2021-May-24, 02:52, said:

Thanks
I'm not allowed to post the link to the hand here because it comes from another site.
the Q was led and I made an easy 2NT+1.
Without interference, others found a nice 4S.

Anyone bid the slam?
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#7 User is offline   pilowsky 

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Posted 2021-May-24, 04:21

View Postmw64ahw, on 2021-May-24, 03:40, said:

Anyone bid the slam?


no, no one bid the slam either!
It was a hot mess!
6 people in 4S with only one making 4S+2
One person going off 2 in 6S
and a scattering of others.
non est deus ex machina; även maskiner behöver lite kärlek, J'ai toujours misé sur l'étrange gentillesse des robots.
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#8 User is offline   mw64ahw 

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Posted 2021-May-24, 05:25

View Postpilowsky, on 2021-May-24, 04:21, said:

no, no one bid the slam either!
It was a hot mess!
6 people in 4S with only one making 4S+2
One person going off 2 in 6S
and a scattering of others.

Has anyone else noticed that those who bid a close makeable slam as above often go down, but the game bidders can make 6. I've seen this quite a few times, and wondered if there a sense of caution/lack of caution that leads us to this situation?
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#9 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2021-May-24, 05:51

View Postmw64ahw, on 2021-May-24, 05:25, said:

Has anyone else noticed that those who bid a close makeable slam as above often go down, but the game bidders can make 6. I've seen this quite a few times, and wondered if there a sense of caution/lack of caution that leads us to this situation?


It's a great slam if the trumps break, if you have an Ekren bid and know they and the hearts don't, you can also make it.

For example win A, cash KQ, heart to the K, heart to the 9, heart AQ ditching diamonds, diamond AK, heart ruff, club ruff and the spade ace to come for 12
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#10 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2021-May-24, 05:58

View Postpilowsky, on 2021-May-23, 21:23, said:


This hand came up in the Club yesterday (IMPs).
I was making up a four at the last table and agreed to play partner's card.
EW was playing some sort of multi-everything and East opened 2H - meaning spades and hearts 'weak'.
I bid 2NT which was passed out for 2N+1 and -3
Is there a "rule of table 17" where you can open without points?
Or is this a reasonable preempt?



Rather than worrying about the opponent's method, you might want to focus more on your own.
2NT is an atrocious bid.
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#11 User is offline   LBengtsson 

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Posted 2021-May-24, 07:30

your opps. play the 2 ekren instead of 2 opening. I have played against scandi players who use this convention and play multi 2 also. without any defence to 2 opening I would just bid 3nt with south hand. 2nt suggest near 17-19, not 22
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#12 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2021-May-24, 07:39

View PostLBengtsson, on 2021-May-24, 07:30, said:

your opps. play the 2 ekren instead of 2 opening. I have played against scandi players who use this convention and play multi 2 also. without any defence to 2 opening I would just bid 3nt with south hand. 2nt suggest near 17-19, not 22


If the opponents are playing 2 as Ekrens, you really want a penalty double available. (And this hand certainly qualifies)
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#13 User is offline   nullve 

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Posted 2021-May-24, 08:07

I must have bid a zillion hands against my own 2-level artificial garbage preempts (but very possibly without learning anything of value :() and my favourite defense is to pretend RHO has opened a Weak Two. So Ekren 2/ are treated like Weak 2/, respectively. This makes it easy to find the spade fit and even the spade slam.
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#14 User is offline   mycroft 

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Posted 2021-May-24, 10:33

As I have repeatedly said on this site, almost always in relation to preempts, there is nothing in the rules that says they have to make the same judgements you do. It is almost always worth asking about preempt style if you don't know it; you might be playing against the "we haven't discussed it. But it'll be 2/top 3 of course" people; you might be playing the old rubber hands that will almost certainly have an outside control; you might be playing E. and me who think first seat all white that Jxxxxx and a king somewhere (but not two!) is a 2 opener, or that Jxxxx 9xxxxx x x is a 2 overcall (or, with other partners, Mathe double) of your strong 2.

The Laws allow regulation of ultra-weak *1 bids* (okay, they allow whatever the RA wants to regulate, but, really, nobody does regulate natural preempts on strength). You live in Australia, home of Myxo 2s (originally called that because "they kill rabbits"; but for the last 20 years, the rabbits have been playing them!) and other artificial preempts that are deemed too hard for MeckWell to defend with out a written defence over here. If you're not used to artificial preempts, usually incredibly aggressive, then you've been living in a sheltered club there, and need to learn to defend against it, because it's everywhere (and then come here, with your written defences, and prove that they are too hard for MeckWell!)
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#15 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2021-May-24, 11:43

View Postmycroft, on 2021-May-24, 10:33, said:

okay, they allow whatever the RA wants to regulate, but, really, nobody does regulate natural preempts on strength).


Even the EBU steers clear or regulating strength ("There is no restriction on the strength of a natural two-level or higher opening bid but similar requirements for full disclosure apply"). But in Italy at least, the problem comes back in through the window as a 2 //opening should be announced as "weak" if it is natural 6-10 HCP.
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#16 User is offline   TylerE 

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Posted 2021-May-24, 11:50

View Postmw64ahw, on 2021-May-24, 05:25, said:

Has anyone else noticed that those who bid a close makeable slam as above often go down, but the game bidders can make 6.


Defenders against slam tend to just take their two cashing tricks, whereas against again they will often defend more passively, because they're trying to beat _4_.
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#17 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2021-May-24, 13:32

View Postpescetom, on 2021-May-24, 11:43, said:

Even the EBU steers clear or regulating strength ("There is no restriction on the strength of a natural two-level or higher opening bid but similar requirements for full disclosure apply"). But in Italy at least, the problem comes back in through the window as a 2 //opening should be announced as "weak" if it is natural 6-10 HCP.


they do however define natural as 5+ cards, our 4 card weak 2s are alertable which causes problems when we correctly alert, opps assume we're playing a multi and they use the wrong defence.
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#18 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2021-May-24, 14:19

View PostCyberyeti, on 2021-May-24, 13:32, said:

they do however define natural as 5+ cards, our 4 card weak 2s are alertable which causes problems when we correctly alert, opps assume we're playing a multi and they use the wrong defence.


In Italy you also announce Multi (!), which I guess Meckstroth would consider obscene, and I'm no fan either. It does have the advantage that 2 alerted must be pretty weird. On the downside (for multi fans, at least) in announced Multi the weak major option must be 6-10 HCP, which also implies there must be an undisclosed strong option (which is not so if you alert it).
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#19 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2021-May-24, 14:35

View Postpescetom, on 2021-May-24, 14:19, said:

In Italy you also announce Multi (!), which I guess Meckstroth would consider obscene, and I'm no fan either. It does have the advantage that 2 alerted must be pretty weird. On the downside (for multi fans, at least) in announced Multi the weak major option must be 6-10 HCP, which also implies there must be an undisclosed strong option (which is not so if you alert it).


Alerted 2 in the UK will be Benji/reverse or more rarely mexican if not multi which it is most of the time (or precision/roman), along with ours
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#20 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2021-May-24, 14:49

Focus on your cardplay first. Not making 10 tricks after getting an Ekrens opening is impossible to explain - did you think they were psyching?
You should also ask whether 2 promises 44 only or 54/45.

Then, as others have said, focus on your bidding. The only options after 2 are pass and 3N in my view, or maybe X (but I don't see what it would gain). 2N is not an option.

Finally, yes 2 on this hand is normal for many who play Ekrens. Some think, why not, it shows their hand in one bid, and then also bid 2 on QT98 KQJTxx x xx. How that is supposed to work I have no idea but that's not our concern.
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