[thepossum]

---

I can't see much risk on this approach. I went more sedately via Clubs and just ended in 6
I think I can count 13 top tricks except in a very unlucky scenario
Disappointing indeed

[smerriman]

This is exactly the type of hand that Gerber is designed for.

But it's exceedingly rare, and the vast majority of times lower level players use it, it shouldn't have been used, which is why many people refuse to play it at all.

(Or they may have a better use for the bid that comes up more regularly.)

[thepossum]

smerriman, on 2023-February-06, 21:56, said:

This is exactly the type of hand that Gerber is designed for.

But it's exceedingly rare, and the vast majority of times lower level players use it, it shouldn't have been used, which is why many people refuse to play it at all.

(Or they may have a better use for the bid that comes up more regularly.)

Thx

I am just so annoyed that I missed the grand myself. But my slam was driven by North

[LBengtsson]

thepossum, on 2023-February-06, 21:58, said:

Thx

I am just so annoyed that I missed the grand myself. But my slam was driven by North

If you have, or remember, the bidding on this hand that would be useful. In my opinion, on hands like this where there's one strong hand, and one much weaker hand, only where the stronger hand is clearly defined in one bid, like 2NT = 20-21 balanced, should be weaker hand be the captain. Ok, maybe with the subsequent bidding, and the stronger hand being clearly defined, then maybe the lesser hand can take control, but I would think that the stronger hand on auctions like this would be in control over 90% of the time.

Even if 4♣ was not Gerber, but showing a solid suit, I think it should be easy to reach a grand slam. What went wrong, I am curious.

[thepossum]

LBengtsson, on 2023-February-07, 00:07, said:

If you have, or remember, the bidding on this hand that would be useful. In my opinion, on hands like this where there's one strong hand, and one much weaker hand, only where the stronger hand is clearly defined in one bid, like 2NT = 20-21 balanced, should be weaker hand be the captain. Ok, maybe with the subsequent bidding, and the stronger hand being clearly defined, then maybe the lesser hand can take control, but I would think that the stronger hand on auctions like this would be in control over 90% of the time.

Even if 4♣ was not Gerber, but showing a solid suit, I think it should be easy to reach a grand slam. What went wrong, I am curious.

Maybe some of that should be in a different forum
But I bid 2C then after 2NT bid 3C, North initiated Blackwood, I indicated 3 keycards, then the Queen and King of Spades and North signed off in 6C
I appreciate maybe I should have bid 4C and not just 3
Come to think of it after 2C-2NT does anyone play 3C as Stayman

[DavidKok]

smerriman, on 2023-February-06, 21:56, said:

But it's exceedingly rare, and the vast majority of times lower level players use it, it shouldn't have been used, which is why many people refuse to play it at all.

I think this is exactly the reason. By itself Gerber is not great and not terrible, but unfortunately it is overused by weaker players to the point that many people will interpret a willingness to play Gerber as a red flag. The correct hand type for it is very rare (I've seen it being used correctly once, in a bidding quiz) since you need to not be interested in opener's shape or strength, i.e. you need running suits missing only some aces. Over 2NT I have a better use for 4♣ (a slam try in hearts), over 1NT I actually don't use 4♣ for anything. Our system card used to have Gerber there, but after it didn't come up in the first two years we took it out.

[mikeh]

thepossum, on 2023-February-07, 00:50, said:

Maybe some of that should be in a different forum
But I bid 2C then after 2NT bid 3C, North initiated Blackwood, I indicated 3 keycards, then the Queen and King of Spades and North signed off in 6C
I appreciate maybe I should have bid 4C and not just 3
Come to think of it after 2C-2NT does anyone play 3C as Stayman

I’m not sure how your auction went but, assuming that your partner asked for kings, it’s normal for that ask to itself tell….it says ‘we have all the aces’. In which case you have an easy 7N bid

Btw, you said in your initial post that you thought you count count 13 top tricks except in a very unlucky scenario. Which would that be?

[thepossum]

If by chance you couldn't make all your club tricks

Partner didn't ask for kings despite all key cards. I said it signed off in 6. How can South go to 7NT not knowing about keycards

As I said in other threads you have a serious problem and need to talk it over with someone. That level of obnoxiousnesz and unresolved anger

I never intended or feel any disrespect to you at all. Yet for some reason you have this constant attitude against me from Day 1

What's making me angry is predictive text seemingly setup to cause error in every word. I thought techs were smarter than that. That's what they keep telling us all

[mikeh]

thepossum, on 2023-February-07, 11:52, said:

If by chance you couldn't make all your club tricks

Partner didn't ask for kings despite all key cards. I said it signed off in 6. How can South go to 7NT not knowing about keycards

As I said in other threads you have a serious problem and need to talk it over with someone. That level of obnoxiousnesz and unresolved anger

I never intended or feel any disrespect to you at all. Yet for some reason you have this constant attitude against me from Day 1

What's making me angry is predictive text seemingly setup to cause error in every word. I thought techs were smarter than that. That's what they keep telling us all

I am sorry you take yet another post as an attack on you.

You described the auction as 2N showing at least two clubs. So you have 8 of them, headed by the AKQ. Thus the opps have at most Jxx between them. How is it that you think you might lose a club trick?

If you don’t understand the issue, I apologize again. But such a lack of insight seems strange to me, coming from someone who has made many posts on a bridge forum

But a word of advice? When you post here, especially when you post as if seeking input, please don’t take every post that offers any criticism of your thinking as being personal. I have no idea who you are. I infer that you’ve had some issues with people in the past, but I promise you that my posts, perhaps not my early ones when I thought you were trolling, are not intended as personal attacks.

[wuudturner]

My own Gerber story from recently? The bidding goes

1♠ - pass - 4♣

Yes indeed, Gerber! It looks like all bids of 4♣ are Gerber by that pair.

[helene_t]

Gerber is one of the few conventions which I refuse to play with pick-up partners at the club.

It might be an ok convention if used only in situations where 4♣ isn't needed as a natural bid, control bid or splinter, and where 4NT would be quantitative.

But if we just agree to play Gerber without details about when it applies, there is bound to be situations where I would like to bid a natural 4♣ but am afraid to do it because partner may take it as Gerber.

In some partnerships I play 4m as RKC for that minor suit if the suit as already been bid and we could plausibly be heading for a slam in that suit. Still it creates misunderstandings in some contested auctions where you are unlimited but would like to bid 4m nonforcing.

[apollo1201]

I read this story once which was quite funny.

A rich sponsor plays with a quite famous champion and says when I bid 4C it is Gerber.

Then the 3C - p - 4C! auction arrives. The champion alerts the 4C bid and when his RHO asks what it is, the champion is quite annoyed. The RHO was actually mister Gerber.

[pescetom]

apollo1201, on 2023-February-10, 14:00, said:

I read this story once which was quite funny.

A rich sponsor plays with a quite famous champion and says when I bid 4C it is Gerber.

Then the 3C - p - 4C! auction arrives. The champion alerts the 4C bid and when his RHO asks what it is, the champion is quite annoyed. The RHO was actually mister Gerber.

You could actually argue that this is a better situation for Gerber than over 1NT or whatever. Playing it as natural NF does not seem much use unless you have very wide ranging agreement about 3m. FWIW we play 4D as RKCB and 4C as a forcing invite to control-bid.

[helene_t]

Why not 4c as barage?

[pescetom]

helene_t, on 2023-February-11, 03:53, said:

Why not 4c as barage?

As barrage against what, 3M from LHO who would not risk 4M over 4C? It sounds like a relatively small target, although I guess it depends a lot on 3C opening style (ours tends to promise a good suit).

[DavidKok]

Against fourth hand having comfortable ways to double then bid with either major, keep 3NT in the picture with unclear hands, have Leaping Michaels to clarify unbalanced major-holding hands, force a guess with sound openings with a long major? You also take away RHO's option to potentially give a strong or weak raise if LHO does bid a major as well as give preference to the right major when both are in play.

[pescetom]

Fair points, but fourth hand can still double over 4C and we can still make an informed decision if they call 3NT. And if opener promises a decent hand then RHO's possibility to make a strong raise of 3M is more likely to be academic.

It seems to me the underlying question is how likely it is we have 6C versus how likely it is they have 6M, because if decent opponents have 4M they are unlikely to miss it anyway. Which brings us back to opening style.

[DavidKok]

That's completely backwards. If you preempt the auction everybody ends up having to guess some of the time. The less space there is the more difficult it will be to get it right. No matter the level of the opponents, there will be hands where they can sort it out over 3♣ but have to guess over 4♣. Making slam opposite a preempt is extremely rare while forcing the opponents to guess at the 4-level can gain a lot.

The strong versus weak raise on 3♣-(P)-P-(3♠); (P)-? might not be that relevant (although the ability to pass certainly is!), but over 3♣-(P)-4♣-(4♠); P-? there's no raise of any kind, while the 4♠ bid is very wide ranging. The chance that they are going down or that they have a slam on (or even that they belong in hearts or NT) are significant, and you win in all those scenarios.

[pescetom]

DavidKok, on 2023-February-11, 06:10, said:

That's completely backwards. If you preempt the auction everybody ends up having to guess some of the time. The less space there is the more difficult it will be to get it right. No matter the level of the opponents, there will be hands where they can sort it out over 3♣ but have to guess over 4♣. Making slam opposite a preempt is extremely rare while forcing the opponents to guess at the 4-level can gain a lot.

The strong versus weak raise on 3♣-(P)-P-(3♠); (P)-? might not be that relevant (although the ability to pass certainly is!), but over 3♣-(P)-4♣-(4♠); P-? there's no raise of any kind, while the 4♠ bid is very wide ranging. The chance that they are going down or that they have a slam on (or even that they belong in hearts or NT) are significant, and you win in all those scenarios.

I dispute your premise that making slam opposite a 3C opening is extremely rare, at least when that opening is agreed to be sound and not merely preemptive: I have made 6C often enough.
That doesn't really require giving up 4C natural though, so worth a rethink which I shall do. Thanks.

[helene_t]

We play 4di as rkc. Might be useful to have a way to ask for a singleton also, maybe 4di could do that. If preempt are reasonably disciplined you can use 4nt as rkc. Open will always have one or two kc including the queen so 4nt can ask opener to bid slam with two.