[fuzzyquack]

What was 2♦? I play controls, so 2♦ shows 0-1. In my bidding culture, 2♣-2♦-3m shows a monster, which happens to be a good start for the actual hand. In this culture, 2♣-2♦-3N shows a solid minor and no interest in slam opposite a 0-1 controls.

[jillybean]

Good to know 4♣ is stayman

2♣:2♦
3nt:4♣

[kereru67]

jillybean, on 2024-December-06, 15:32, said:

Good to know 4♣ is stayman

2♣:2♦
3nt:4♣

I like your sig. Point count is a poor way to measure trick taking potential in suit contracts.

[Zelandakh]

Sorry David but here you are being a complete idiot.

DavidKok, on 2024-December-06, 01:08, said:

I think the Baron and 3♣ suggestions are both poor, as is treating the hand as 25-27. In my opinion these are great examples of resulting, i.e. people deciding the final contract first and the auction after.

You think treating this hand as 25-27 is idiotic? Seriously? What range do you think it is then, 0-24 or 28+? I would love to hear your logic for such an upgrade/downgrade. The reason for upgrading it from 26 to 27 is because it has hard values (missing cards are JJJJQQKK as opposed to say AAAQ or AAKK) and the 5332 shape including a AKQxx suit. You and the Walrus might think that AQT AKx Ax AKQxx and KQJ KQJ AQJ AQJ are equal but not everyone leaves the bridge logic behind when they get a good hand. Similarly Baron 4♠ is a convention that simply replaces a natural 4NT quantitative invite. The auction I gave is functionally identical to that of CY. I explicitly laid out how it works in detail so that everyone would understand. The suggestion that these ideas constitute resulting is quite frankly insulting and suggests you have a complete lack of bridge understanding. This makes me quite sad because I had thought you might be one of the better posters remaining here. Sadly I am sometimes wrong.

DavidKok, on 2024-December-06, 01:08, said:

2♣ openings are a mess, and everybody is all too ready to explain how they would of course not have had any problems. Funny how, at the club, people never quite seem to bid these hands well.

I deliberately did not offer a solution or a miracle cure, but instead suggest discussing 2♣ auctions in general.

Just because you think the hand is insoluble does not mean that others do. There is no miracle here - if the range is 25+ then North invites a slam and South accepts; if it is 26+ or even 27+ then Baron is just a way of exploring alternative strains. The upgrade from 26 to 27 makes no difference at all in this. It is just sensible bidding with 1950s technology.

DavidKok, on 2024-December-06, 01:08, said:

P.S.: Eric Kokish called the convention he invented 'Birthright', even if his own name is the more popular one for it these days. Given the forum this is in I'm not sure it's very relevant though.

I am aware of the original convention name and have probably used it here myself if one looks back through posts from many years ago. However, when offering someone look up a convention name then it is usually best to provide the name that is most commonly in use, in this case Kokish Relay. Would you tell a beginner to google Pottage rather than Cappelletti? or Marx instead of Stayman? Are you also IT-illiterate as well as bridge-stupid? I strongly suggest you look back at some of my (rather long) posting history before bringing up this type of argument again. I think my body of bidding posts speaks for itself in this. If this is going to be the level of yours, I suggest you head back to B/I.

[DavidKok]

I'm sorry. In my first reply to this thread I wrote

DavidKok, on 2024-December-05, 16:31, said:

How much is the East hand worth? A quick count shows 26 HCP per Milton Work, but the hand is significantly stronger than that. The hand is full of aces and kings (in fact, contains all the aces). It has an amazing five card suit. Even that ♠T is an unusually good asset in a hand where so many slots are already taken up by honours. I'd rate the hand to be worth closer to 28, and East has seriously underbid their hand by showing 25-26. What's more, this far in the tail of the HCP distribution, the lower end of the range is much more likely than the upper range. Even in the two-point range of 25-26 the distribution is approximately 70%-30% in favour of 25 HCP (based on 4,353,876 randomly generated hands, of which 1,000 were of the requisite shape and strength). So that's the strength partner will assume on close decisions. We're simply too strong for that.

I understand that it was still unclear that I thought that the hand was worth 28 points, I'll do my best to be clearer in the future in the Novice and Beginner forum.

I also want to be very clear that I chose to describe the actions quoted as 'poor', not your 'idiotic'. In my opinion, any worse descriptor is overstating the case. These 2♣ auctions are very difficult, and in general I think it is good to not come down harshly on actions even if you disagree with them.

My issue with Baron isn't the way the convention works, but simply that it is not a popular convention. All the way in the first post the OP indicated that

kereru67, on 2024-December-05, 16:03, said:

E dealer, nobody vulnerable. This (2♣-2♦; 3NT) was a typical auction, 3NT usually means 25-26.

I took your suggestion of

Zelandakh, on 2024-December-05, 19:42, said:

As West, the easiest way is probably to respond 4S (Baron).

to mean that you thought this treatment is the best way to bid these hands. In my opinion the bidding has already gone suboptimally at this point, and earlier intervention is warranted. What's more, I would not adopt the Baron 4♠ convention to deal with these situations even if the start of the auction is fixed - it is simply a tool I think comes up too infrequently and doesn't gain enough when it comes up.

Zelandakh, on 2024-December-14, 14:49, said:

Sorry David but here you are being a complete idiot.

[..]

The suggestion that these ideas constitute resulting is quite frankly insulting and suggests you have a complete lack of bridge understanding.

[..]

Just because you think the hand is insoluble does not mean that others do.

[..]

Are you also IT-illiterate as well as bridge-stupid?

[..]

If this is going to be the level of yours, I suggest you head back to B/I.

With feedback like this around, I think maybe it is a win-win if I leave the forums entirely.

[pescetom]

DavidKok, on 2024-December-14, 15:23, said:

With feedback like this around, I think maybe it is a win-win if I leave the forums entirely.

Please do not, we are no longer allowed to downvote posts here but I for one do not accept the tone of the feedback.

[jillybean]

BBFers will go on a tilt from time to time, some more often than others. Give it only the attention it deserves.
No one wants to see you go anywhere.

[Zelandakh]

DavidKok, on 2024-December-14, 15:23, said:

With feedback like this around, I think maybe it is a win-win if I leave the forums entirely.

If you go out of your way to criticise others personally, don't be surprised if you get it back with a cherry on top. As for what you do next - stay or go, it makes no odds to me. We've lost many much better posters here already.

[helene_t]

FWIW, based on Csaba's single dummy regression model, this hand is worth 28.68 points for the purpose of making 6NT, and 30.18 for the purpose of making 6♣,

https://helene-h-thy...and-evaluation/

[helene_t]

Zelandakh, on 2024-December-14, 14:49, said:

complete idiot

What about taking a valium before posting?

[foobar]

 pescetom, on 2024-December-14, 15:52, said:

Please do not, we are no longer allowed to downvote posts here but I for one do not accept the tone of the feedback.

+1...a critique of the methods is kosher, but name calling is totally unwarranted. One may disagree with the feedback, but a discussion of methods is very different from labelling people.