[HombreEast]

Hi, the bidding went 1N-p-2C (Stayman)-p; 2H-p-3D-p; 3N-p-4C-p; 4N. What does 4N mean or ask in this sequence?
Note: we do NOT bid minor-suit Stayman nor do we bid transfers after 1N opening.

[pescetom]

First of all, congratulations on 15(?) duplicate posts: a record
Not your fault of course, but the forum is broken due to a clumsy update a year ago and BBO's hosting even more so.
If the first click to post does not work, maybe try again once, but please no more.
You may be lost in cloud or get an "oops" nonsense warning, but it is quite likely your post was registered all the same, and clicking again creates a duplicate.

As for your question, it depends upon agreements. I imagine 2H showed 4 (or 4+) cards, but was 3D natural in misfit? And what was 4C after that? Has a trumps suit been fixed or at least proposed?
If (as I would guess between pickup partners) 2H was 4 cards, 3D was natural misfit and 4C was "I don't know what I am doing" then 4NT sounds like authorized panic (please pass).

[bluenikki]

HombreEast, on 2024-December-09, 13:07, said:

Hi, the bidding went 1N-p-2C (Stayman)-p; 2H-p-3D-p; 3N-p-4C-p; 4N. What does 4N mean or ask in this sequence?
Note: we do NOT bid minor-suit Stayman nor do we bid transfers after 1N opening.

If, without discussion, I bid that way as responder, I'd have 1=3=5=4 shape (or 0=3=6=4 or 0=3=5=5 or ...). 4NT by opener says spades are not a worry and they don't fancy a 4-3 heart fit.

[jdiana]

What do 3♦ and 4♣ mean under your agreements?

[mycroft]

My guess:

---

It could be that responder is 4054 and is running away from 3NT. I don't run from 3NT, so if I did it (I don't play Gerber either) it would be 4054 slam try.

But I'm sticking with my guess.

[apollo1201]

Another try!

I would say responder has a 4144, 4054 or maybe 1453 and sufficient strength to go above 3NT.

And opener clearly rejected interest in any of responder s 3 suits, while confirming no fear of opponents H suit.

If responder had a H fit and wanted to express it in a forcing and slammish way, oh well, find a new convention (or a new partner LOL). The one I know is 3S but it kills any splinter in the S suit. IDK how to solve this, though.

[helene_t]

Responder is presumably 4054, so if opener is 3523 with a minimum, it is nice to be able to bid a natural 4NT here.

RKCB for clubs is another possibility but I think opener would have to bid 4♥ with a slamish hand with clubs fit. Hearts is the only suit in which we can't have a fit so we can use 4♥ as a clubs raise. (OK, we don't have an 8 card fit in spades either, but we might wat to play 4♠ is a 4-3 fit).

It is sometimes difficult to say when 4NT is RKC and when it is natural but I think this one is fairly clear, unless you have the agreement that 4NT over partners 4-of-a-suit is always RKCB. That wouldn't be the technically optimal agreement but it would be simple, which is also very important of course.

If you don't open 1NT with a 5card major, there is a case for this 4NT to be RKCB, as we must have a minor suit fit on this auction.

[HombreEast]

helene_t, on 2024-December-10, 07:29, said:

Responder is presumably 4054, so if opener is 3523 with a minimum, it is nice to be able to bid a natural 4NT here.

RKCB for clubs is another possibility but I think opener would have to bid 4♥ with a slamish hand with clubs fit. Hearts is the only suit in which we can't have a fit so we can use 4♥ as a clubs raise. (OK, we don't have an 8 card fit in spades either, but we might wat to play 4♠ is a 4-3 fit).

It is sometimes difficult to say when 4NT is RKC and when it is natural but I think this one is fairly clear, unless you have the agreement that 4NT over partners 4-of-a-suit is always RKCB. That wouldn't be the technically optimal agreement but it would be simple, which is also very important of course.

If you don't open 1NT with a 5card major, there is a case for this 4NT to be RKCB, as we must have a minor suit fit on this auction.

[HombreEast]

Opener did understand 3D as diamonds, and 4C then showing clubs with slam interest in either diamonds or clubs since responder freely went beyond 3N. Note: responder distr. was 3, a tiny ht, 5 - 4.
Opener now believed 4N would be passable. Responder believed 4N was RKCB for clubs. Which is correct interpretation?

[HombreEast]

HombreEast, on 2024-December-10, 11:27, said:

Opener did understand 3D as diamonds, and 4C then showing clubs with slam interest in either diamonds or clubs since responder freely went beyond 3N. Note: responder distr. was 3, a tiny ht, 5 - 4.
Opener now believed 4N would be passable. Responder believed 4N was RKCB for clubs. Which is correct interpretation? p.s. When we open 1N we do NOT have a 5 card major.

[DavidKok]

HombreEast, on 2024-December-10, 11:27, said:

Opener did understand 3D as diamonds, and 4C then showing clubs with slam interest in either diamonds or clubs since responder freely went beyond 3N. Note: responder distr. was 3, a tiny ht, 5 - 4.
Opener now believed 4N would be passable. Responder believed 4N was RKCB for clubs. Which is correct interpretation?

I think 'passable' is a superior treatment but expect most people to play this (and, honestly, pretty much all) 4NT bid(s) as an ace asking tool.

[Stephen Tu]

DavidKok, on 2024-December-10, 11:50, said:

I think 'passable' is a superior treatment but expect most people to play this (and, honestly, pretty much all) 4NT bid(s) as an ace asking tool.

Maybe at low levels of play 4nt is always keycard/ace asking, but certainly not at higher levels. For me, 4nt is always natural if natural is a plausible meaning, and certainly always natural if the previous bid from the 4nt bidder was 3nt to play. (unless I am responding 4nt to a kickback/minorwood call by agreement)
Plus, I would never agree to play rkc 4nt over clubs, there is no room, you are forced to slam over all but one response. One should play kickback or some form of optional minorwood IMO.

[mikeh]

I agree with Stephen. No good player, in my fairly broad experience, plays 4N as keycard in clubs. It’s a basic rule of notrump bidding that once a player has bid 3N ‘to play’ and partner pulls, then 4N is another attempt to play notrump

Also…and I understand that most posters here pay no attention to me on this issue…in what universe can opener have a hand that wanted to play 3N AND now can place the club contract simply by knowing how many keycards responder has? Wtf!!!! All you ‘4N is keycard’ readers need, seriously, to improve your basic understanding of slam bidding. *sigh*. None of you will. I shouldn’t complain. It’s players like you who enable players like me and Stephen to be consistent winners against your type of bidder. Bad players bid badly. Bad bidders who can’t be bothered to learn remain bad players. I shouldn’t let my frustration show but how many times do you have to be told how silly it is to use 4N as always keycard before you wake up?

[nullve]

helene_t, on 2024-December-10, 07:29, said:

If you don't open 1NT with a 5card major, there is a case for this 4NT to be RKCB, as we must have a minor suit fit on this auction.

Or if over 1N-2♣; 2♥-3♦, Opener would always bid 3♥ with 5 hearts, 3♠ with 4 spades and 3N otherwise.

[mw64ahw]

HombreEast, on 2024-December-10, 11:27, said:

Opener did understand 3D as diamonds, and 4C then showing clubs with slam interest in either diamonds or clubs since responder freely went beyond 3N. Note: responder distr. was 3, a tiny ht, 5 - 4.
Opener now believed 4N would be passable. Responder believed 4N was RKCB for clubs. Which is correct interpretation?

Sounds like you need to look at your 1N structure given many will play 1N-3♥ as showing 31(54). I play it specifically as 3154 and go via 2♣ (5cM?) to show 3145

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

The NTs openers task is describing his hand.

#1 he showed 4 hearts

#2 he denied 4 spades, he also showed a strong stopper in clubs, he is not worried about playing 3NT,
even possible facing 5431 (club shortage), i.e. Ax is not enough.

#3 I have no idea, what 4C means, I guess 5440 shape is reasonable, although it could also be a club
shortage with a 64 hand, responder did not deny a 6 card dimaond suit.
Setting diamonds, asking for control bids, would be my prefered interpretation, but 5440 is ok as
well.

I have no idea, what 4NT means, but before you ask, what 4NT means, clarify the meaning of 4C.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[bluenikki]

P_Marlowe, on 2024-December-11, 05:45, said:

I have no idea, what 4NT means, but before you ask, what 4NT means, clarify the meaning of 4C.

Responder is trying to decide between NT and game in a minor. You must have a consistent agreement about telling vs asking. If 3♦ was telling, so must subsequent suit bids. (It is playable for 3♦ to be asking, but that does not work well in slammish auctions.)

Here, responder does not believe a single stopper is adequate facing their shortness. 4♣ says the worry was spades. 4♠ would have said the worry was clubs.

[nullve]

P_Marlowe, on 2024-December-11, 05:45, said:

The NTs openers task is describing his hand.

Yes. In particular, 3N over 3♦ doesn't remotely say 'I want to play 3N'.

P_Marlowe, on 2024-December-11, 05:45, said:

#1 he showed 4 hearts

#2 he denied 4 spades, he also showed a strong stopper in clubs, he is not worried about playing 3NT,
even possible facing 5431 (club shortage), i.e. Ax is not enough.

There isn't enough space for all that, is it? Or what should Opener do over 3♦ on a hand with neither 5 hearts, 4 spades nor a club stopper (even a weak one), e.g. with something like

KTx
AQxx
AKx
xxx

if 3♥ and 3♠ would have shown 5 hearts and 4 spades, respectively?

P_Marlowe, on 2024-December-11, 05:45, said:

#3 I have no idea, what 4C means, I guess 5440 shape is reasonable, although it could also be a club
shortage with a 64 hand, responder did not deny a 6 card dimaond suit.
Setting diamonds, asking for control bids, would be my prefered interpretation, but 5440 is ok as
well.

I have no idea, what 4NT means, but before you ask, what 4NT means, clarify the meaning of 4C.

Both players understood 4♣ as slammish with a real club suit, so let's assume that's the meaning.

Given that Opener is 3-4 or 2-4 (or perhaps 1-4 with a singleton top honour) in the majors, he must have real support for at least one minor, so it seems to me that now (over 1N-2♣; 2♥-3♦; 3N-4♣) 4♦ should set diamond as trumps and everything else clubs as trumps. Then by default 4N is RKC with clubs as trumps.

I don't understand why anyone would want 4N as a natural bid here unless they believe Opener could still be 3523.

[P_Marlowe]

nullve, on 2024-December-11, 08:45, said:

Yes. In particular, 3N over 3♦ doesn't remotely say 'I want to play 3N'.


There isn't enough space for all that, is it? Or what should Opener do over 3♦ on a hand with neither 5 hearts, 4 spades nor a club stopper (even a weak one), e.g. with something like

KTx
AQxx
AKx
xxx

<snip>

4D?

You have a fit, why not show it?

[nullve]

P_Marlowe, on 2024-December-11, 09:15, said:

4D?

You have a fit, why not show it?

Because over 3♦ you don't yet know if you can afford to bypass 3N? (3♦ isn't necessarily slammish, if I've understood the system correctly.)