[jillybean]

If you play a response of 2C as any hand, game forcing.

1♠:2♣
2♦:2♠
3♣

2♣ could be a suit here, do you limit the club cue as showing A or K?

[HardVector]

The only time I play 2c as an artificial GF is in a structured relay system. If you are trying to make up a system, then you have to figure out what 2s means. Particularly, what is the difference between 2s and 3s? I would think that 2s is a preference making 3c a shape showing bid. If you are playing 2s as fixing spades, then 3c is a cuebid according to your cuebidding agreements.

[paulg]

I don't know anyone who plays such a method without artificial continuations. It seems to create far more questions than solutions, especially in an I/A forum.

However I do know a lot of people who play 1X-2♣ as game forcing, either with clubs or bal/semi-balanced hand. With these methods, it seems that you should be able to show responder's hand with their rebid to avoid confusion, so you either rebid clubs, bid no trump with a balanced hand, raise partner's second suit with a good raise, or rebid partner's opening suit with 3-card support.

However, whatever you play, I would treat 3♣ as shape-showing rather than specifically a cue bid. I would expect an honour, but ♣Qxx is fine.

You are trying to find the best game initially, not looking for a slam.

[awm]

I agree with paulg that it's better for opener's third bid to be shape rather than controls. When you do get to cuebidding, I think it depends on exactly how you define 2♣.

* If 2♣ is "natural or balanced" (so artificial only in the sense that it could be 3442 or the like) I'd still treat clubs as a suit for cuebidding purposes.
* If 2♣ is purely artificial (really any GF) then I would just cuebid controls and wouldn't do anything special for clubs.

[jillybean]

Ah, my question is irrelevant.
If 2C is a suit, responder will rebid it and usual cue bidding rules apply. If it’s artificial, we can cue freely.
Thanks

[Flem72]

jillybean, on 2025-January-19, 06:15, said:

Ah, my question is irrelevant.
If 2C is a suit, responder will rebid it and usual cue bidding rules apply. If it's artificial, we can cue freely.
Thanks

Responder is, eg, Kxx (HA&D) AQxxx? When will s/he rebid Cs over the 3C cue except with 4C in a further cue-bidding sequence? Don't play 'any GF', but: I think 'usual cue-bidding rules' always apply regardless of the shape of the 2C response; for me, with Cs (4+), opener would rebid 3C.

[mikeh]

It’s increasingly common (I don’t like this method for reasons that would take a .out of explication) to play 1M 2C as either a balanced game force, including with 3M, or clubs gf or a limit raise of the major. My understanding is that 2D is basically a noise. It denies 6M. If one opened 1S, then 2D denies 4H. It also, I think, denies a positional 2N bid. The idea is that now 2S by responder shows the LR, allowing the partnership to play 2M rather than 3M (which can be a huge advantage when the cards lie badly) while also creating a lot of bidding space for game tries. While I personally don’t like it, there’s no doubt but that there are upsides.

But that’s not what JB as discussing…sorry for the digression.


Amongst many 2/1 players it’s normal for 1S 2R to promise 5 cards in the red suit. Thus with 3=4=4=2, gf, it’s ‘normal’ to bid 2C.


Various pairs have various agreements about 1S 2C 2D but the vast majority play it as natural (I prefer not to…in my main partnership it denies 6M and other infrequent hands).


Then you get into yet another area.


What is 1S 2C 2D 2H?

Opener won’t have 4 hearts. So responder is very rarely going to be bidding hearts as a possible trump suit….he’d have to be 5=6 or more in hearts and spades, with a gf hand. You can play a lot of bridge for a lot of years and never have that hand.

So some use it as a ‘punt’. It’s a firm of 4SF, even though 2C established a gf,n which is the usual purpose of 4SF. So 2H, for these players, denies 3S, denies really long clubs (3C), devise 4 diamonds (3D) and suggests doubt about wanting to declare notrump from his side, or doubt about how high to go.

For these players, 2S is real support…3+

In that context, I’d think that 1S 2C 2D 2S 3C was patterning out. Nothing to do with cuebidding. We’ve a long way to go, and lots of time to define interest, and begin control bidding. 2C didn’t promise clubs but neither did it deny clubs. So 3C by opener suggests 5=1=4=3, and at least, for me, Qxx in clubs. If responder has something like AKxxx in clubs and not much wasted in hearts, he can get excited. Btw, don’t bd this way with xxx. Opposite AKxxx or KJxxx or similar 4 cad suits, xxx is horrible for slam purposes. The idea is to let partner evaluate, and xxx is misleading while Hxx often helpful.


Btw, while I’m not about to play the 2C could be a limit raise style, I think it better than ‘2C is any game force’. Now, if what jb meant is that it’s ‘any game force without 5R (over 1S)’ then that’s fine…it’s what I play with every expert partner. But 2C could conceal, say, 5 hearts and shorter clubs…not for me, thank you.

I’m not sure how much help I’ve been in terms of the OP, since I’ve discussed varying schemes for 1S 2C 2D 2S. But in none of them would I for one moment consider 3C to be a cuebid.

[jillybean]

Yes, 'any game force without 5R (over 1S), I didn't think to describe it like that, doesn't 'everyone' play it that way? This is the first I have heard of including a limit raise in 1M 2C but I'm not likely to see that in the club games I play.

"In that context, I’d think that 1S 2C 2D 2S 3C was patterning out. Nothing to do with cuebidding. We’ve a long way to go, and lots of time to define interest, and begin control bidding."

But do we? If 3C is patterning out is my other option to bid 3S? Now here we are at the 4 level and partner can't find out about my club control until the 5 level?
I'm cooperating, I can bid 4S/2D with my 11-12hcp minimum, no slam interest.

[jdiana]

jillybean, on 2025-January-19, 19:38, said:

Yes, 'any game force without 5R (over 1S), I didn't think to describe it like that, doesn't 'everyone' play it that way? This is the first I have heard of including a limit raise in 1M 2C but I'm not likely to see that in the club games I play.

"In that context, I’d think that 1S 2C 2D 2S 3C was patterning out. Nothing to do with cuebidding. We’ve a long way to go, and lots of time to define interest, and begin control bidding."

But do we? If 3C is patterning out is my other option to bid 3S? Now here we are at the 4 level and partner can't find out about my club control until the 5 level?
I'm cooperating, I can bid 4S/2D with my 11-12hcp minimum, no slam interest.

I'm sure Mike can give a better answer but I think this is a pretty good explanation of opener's options when patterning out - https://www.advinbri...k-in-bridge/419

I usually see your version of 2♣ described as "nebulous 2♣" or "GF clubs or balanced" so I wasn't 100% sure you were describing the same thing originally. Interesting thread!

[akwoo]

jillybean, on 2025-January-19, 19:38, said:

Yes, 'any game force without 5R (over 1S), I didn't think to describe it like that, doesn't 'everyone' play it that way? This is the first I have heard of including a limit raise in 1M 2C but I'm not likely to see that in the club games I play.

"In that context, I’d think that 1S 2C 2D 2S 3C was patterning out. Nothing to do with cuebidding. We’ve a long way to go, and lots of time to define interest, and begin control bidding."

But do we? If 3C is patterning out is my other option to bid 3S? Now here we are at the 4 level and partner can't find out about my club control until the 5 level?
I'm cooperating, I can bid 4S/2D with my 11-12hcp minimum, no slam interest.

If partner cares about your club control over 3S, they can bid a (non)-serious 3N. Presumably 3N can't be to play since if 3N was at all a possibly suitable alternative contract you would've patterned out with 2N over 2S.

[jillybean]

It's another endless loops regarding style perhaps?

https://www.bridgeba...41-21-sequence/

[jillybean]

akwoo, on 2025-January-19, 21:12, said:

If partner cares about your club control over 3S, they can bid a (non)-serious 3N. Presumably 3N can't be to play since if 3N was at all a possibly suitable alternative contract you would've patterned out with 2N over 2S.

Perhaps, I don't have that in my arsenal.

[mikeh]

Slam bidding is a complex topic, far more complex than can be addressed in posts in a forum such as this

However

Based on my observations of a wide range of club level players, most players think that slam is about how many hcp we have plus, of course, the mandatory use of keycard (or Gerber) to announce we have slam ambitions…I’ve railed against that abuse of keycard for years, but weak players can’t, it seems, help themselves. I’ve seen countless players, holding a balanced 18 count, drive to hopeless slams after their partner opened, often (mis)using keycard wide open in some unbid suit. ‘But I had 18 points’ they say, and their partner usually nods sympathetically.

Slams can be bid based on power, with keycard used usually to ensure we’re not missing two keycards but also to find out if grand is biddable.

But slams can also be bid on counting tricks, combined with making sure the opps don’t have two winners.

You watch expert bridge on vugraph and you’ll see lots of slams bid on relatively low hcp. The key on such auctions is usually finding out that we have sources of length tricks and sufficient controls. And, I promise you, it’s not because they are ‘counting distributional points’ or ‘support points’ or similar jargon used by some writers (including pros who definitely don’t practice what they teach, since what they teach is an attempt to give guidance to players who want simple rules). It’s because they count tricks, not points.

Say I’m 5=1=4=3. I hold AQJxx x AKxx xxx. Partner holds Kxxx Axx x AKxxx. Where do you want to play? 6S. Grand has zero chance.

Now give me AQJxx x Axxx Qxx. It’s fewer hcp but grand is on not much more than a 3-2 club break.

Tell me how the average player ever finds out which opening hand I have?

In my preferred style, the third round 3C bid does two things. It announces the heart shortness. This is good for slam evaluation. Axx for responder is good, KJx is bad..same point count. It also announces that I have Hxx in clubs, where the H is A/K/Q. If I held 5=1=4=3 with xxx in clubs, I wouldn’t pattern out and I’d be leery of initiating a slam probe.

Now, 2C doesn’t show long clubs….but it doesn’t deny them either, and partner will be immensely encouraged if he has decent long clubs. Even AJ9xx grows up opposite Qxx rather than xxx…obviously not for grand, lol, but if we have no side losers, we rate to bring clubs home, much more often than not, for 4 tricks, and 5 isn’t impossible.

This, btw, is a big reason that I don’t make J2N raises with 4 trump and a good 5+ side suit. I bid my suit….that way, after I reveal my trump fit, partner will upgrade Hx/Hxx in my long suit and be cautious about xxx.

Most players don’t bid collaboratively…most, in my experience, because they don’t know how and, even if they did, their partner doesn’t. There are few places to learn. My understanding is that in many cities the experts don’t play much club bridge….some pros do, but they’re not often interested in teaching anyone except maybe their client (and some pros, being paid to win masterpoints rather than to teach, aren’t even interested in that). The days of eager to learn players in their 20’s hanging out with experts in their 30’s and 40’s are an ancient memory. And, given the ongoing slow death of the game, there are fewer books on bidding, and most of them are woefully out of date. Plus most written today are aimed at older novices who will never become expert. So there aren’t many resources for the truly interested. Which is a shame, since bidding can be beautiful when two players are in sync.

Learning that slam isn’t merely about how many hcp you or partner hold, nor just about controls can open the door to far improved game and slam bidding…..btw, slam bidding is about knowing when to stay out of slam or grand just as much as it is about bidding at the 6 or 7 level. If everyone knew that, those plaintive wails from players writing-100 after driving to slam ‘because I had 18 points’ would disappear, never to be missed

[akwoo]

jillybean, on 2025-January-19, 21:34, said:

Perhaps, I don't have that in my arsenal.

There have been a handful of occasions where I've inflicted a 3N bid requesting a control bid on my partner without agreement. Without agreement, it's not clear what the hand strength is, but if you want to know about a club control it might not matter. Also, I risked partner taking it for a choice of games bid and passing, but if partner judged 3N was better than 4M, they were probably right.

[jillybean]

Thanks.
Probably back pre pandemic, I was patterning out on these hands, confident partner would continue the auction. At some stage we, or I, adopted a style where we cue bid to continue and cooperate in a probe for slam. Any method to prevent partner jumping to game or Keycard must be better than going down at the 5 level.

If opener is patterning out, 1♠ 2♣* 2♦ 2♠ 3♣ shows a 5143 hand
and 1♠ 2♣* 2♦ 2♠ 2N is a 5242 hand. This is shape and not an offer to play in NT?

Edit.To add to the confusion, with one partner

1S 2C* natural gf 5 card+ suit
2D 2S setting trump, 3 cards
3C is played as Cue showing A or K

[Flem72]

mikeh, on 2025-January-19, 13:12, said:

Various pairs have various agreements about 1S 2C 2D but the vast majority play it as natural (I prefer not to…in my main partnership it denies 6M and other infrequent hands).

What is 1S 2C 2D 2H?

In my preferred:Opener's 2D rebid is denial: not 6M, not 4OM, not 4+C (Hxxx+) (with 5M332, rebid 2M; 2N = 6M). So usually 4+Ds.1S 2C 2D 2H: 2H is artificial, denies 3cdM, claiming good Cs and asking for support or natural rebid.

[jdiana]

jillybean, on 2025-January-20, 08:46, said:

At some stage we, or I, adopted a style where we cue bid . . .

Hopefully, "we". Cue bids don't work very well when partner doesn't know it's a cue bid.

Kidding aside, I think this situation - responder has been able to show support for our major at the two level, therefore we have extra space so we pattern out - can be easy to miss at my level of club player. So confusion is a definite possibility. What helps me remember is that we cue bid between 3M and 4M.

To answer your question, I think the 2NT rebid is shape-showing, effectively denying shortness in the other suits. We've already agreed on the trump suit.

[pescetom]

jillybean, on 2025-January-20, 08:46, said:

Edit.To add to the confusion, with one partner

1S 2C* natural gf 5 card+ suit
2D 2S setting trump, 3 cards
3C is played as Cue showing A or K

Like others here I think that shaping out is more important than showing controls so low: in any case it's useful to have simple and consistent meta-rules especially when playing with a wide range of partners and "control-bidding a major starts from 3M wherever possible" is a good one.
We teach our beginners that 2S here does not definitively set trump (might be 2 card unwilling to assume responsibility for NT, in any case asks Opener to continue to describe) and a jump to 3S sets trump and invites control-bid.

[pescetom]

mikeh, on 2025-January-19, 13:12, said:

It’s increasingly common (I don’t like this method for reasons that would take a .out of explication) to play 1M 2C as either a balanced game force, including with 3M, or clubs gf or a limit raise of the major.

Not met that one. What is increasingly common over here is to play 1♥-2♦ and one or both of 1♠-2♦ and 1♠-2♥ as either "strong with diamonds(hearts) or weak with Opener's major". After some dentistry you may arrive at a more meaningful explanation, with the "weak" major usually being the equivalent of a simple raise (or weaker to split range) so as to differentiate 3/4 card support or free up 1M 2M as a limit raise. The less likely "strong" 2/1 meaning being sometimes GF but sometimes not (with 1M-2♣ as the only GF).

[mw64ahw]

I can add my tuppence worth here. The only 3-card raise that I put through 2♣ are those which have 5+♣ and are slamish looking at the option to play in either suit. If opener is minimish then a 2♦ response indicates such and a reply of 3♠ now gives opener the choice depending on their ♣ holding. Most other bids suggest that a grand is possible.