[jillybean]

Scoring: IMP

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West North East South

 2♠    Pass  Pass  3♣
 Pass  3♦    3♠    4♦
 Pass  5♣    Pass  Pass
 Pass  


Comments on the bidding please. I bid 3♦ with 3nt in mind, should I have jumped to a 5♣ game immediately?

[gwnn]

Hamman's rule (if 3NT is a reasonable alternative, bid 3NT). bid 3NT.

[vang]

you may try 3♠ instead of 3♦ to ask for spade stopper.

[Wackojack]

vang, on Aug 3 2007, 05:14 AM, said:

you may try 3♠ instead of 3♦ to ask for spade stopper.

In my book a bid of 3♠ is showing not asking. Thus the 3♦ bid is fine. Without the intervention of 3♠, South could then keep the ball rolling by bidding 3♥, inviting 3NT if North has a spade stop. However, over the intervening bid of 3♠ I think south should pass. Then it is reasonable for North to bid 4 or 5♣. If 4♣ South could raise to 5♣.

This hand illustrates the virtue of bidding to the maximum immediately. Had East supported with a premptive 3♠ on the first round it puts enormous pressure on NS giving them 2 chances to go wrong. South might consider the hand not strong enough to overcall 4♣. If South does in fact leap into the unknown, North with 13HCP and 4 card support might reasonably bid 6♣.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

I am pretty sure 3D is nonforcing,
i.e. I dont like the bid, and I prefer
a 3NT bid.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[hrothgar]

P_Marlowe, on Aug 3 2007, 02:14 PM, said:

Hi,

I am pretty sure 3D is nonforcing,
i.e. I dont like the bid, and I prefer
a 3NT bid.

With kind regards
Marlowe

I don't think that its playable to treat a 3♦ advance as natural and non-forcing. I can't imagine ever wanting to stop on a dime like this.

The bid that I dislike is 4♦

[helene_t]

N can bid 3N or ask for a spade stopper with 3♠. I would just bid 3N. 3♦ shows diamonds unless you have some special agreement. So 3♦ is not good. It is probably not forcing.

4♦ is fine with me. With 3-card support for p, a p who denied a spade stopper by not bidding 3N, and a singleton in the enemy suit, S wants to compete to 4♦.

Finally, as Jack says, E must bid 3♠ immediately.

[ralph23]

The real culprit is East, who failed to raise to 3♠ immediately. He has no defense and values/length in West's suit. He must cooperate in the preempt ... it's already a minor miracle that North has passed!!

North's best call over 3♣ by South is 3NT imho.

3♦ is constructive but NF, in the methods of most people in my area (although some folks do play that a new suit in response to an overcall is forcing... you should clarify with your regular partners and there is of course a spot on the conv. card for this agreement).

So I don't like 3♦ at all .. partner will think you have a real suit (as in fact happened), and just as bad, it gives West a second chance to redeem himself and further the preempt (as in fact happened). You don't have time to pots around, so just bid 3NT and hope for the best. Else you may hear something from South that takes you past 3NT (as in fact happened).

You have ♠ stopped and can hold up in ♠ as well. You have a nice fit in ♣ and 6 points there, so you know South has values outside of ♣, and you think you'll take 5 or 6 ♣ tricks. Partner's other values rate to be in ♥, but this is a gamble of course.

If 3NT is not making then my bet is that 5♣ is not making either. So the gamble on 3NT is a good one imho.

This post has been edited by ralph23: 2007-August-03, 08:14

[TimG]

[quote name='jillybean2' date='Aug 3 2007, 02:58 AM']

Scoring: IMP

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[jillybean]

I obviously play 3♦ forcing

With a great ♣ fit I didnt think it was necessary to jump to 3nt and is
3♠. asking, showing or a ♣ raise? good question

[P_Marlowe]

jillybean2, on Aug 3 2007, 10:41 AM, said:

I obviously play 3♦ forcing

With a great ♣ fit I didnt think it was necessary to jump to 3nt and is
3♠. asking, showing or a ♣ raise? good question

3S asks about a club stopper, it also promises
tolerance for clubs, ... you have to play 4C in
case partner has no spade stopper

Please be aware that non forcing does not mean
garbage. Personnally I doubt, that 3D can be played
as forcing, unless you play transfer advances.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[cherdano]

3S shows a club raise. Maybe 3N is the right bid, though.

[jdonn]

hrothgar, on Aug 3 2007, 07:24 AM, said:

I don't think that its playable to treat a 3♦ advance as natural and non-forcing. I can't imagine ever wanting to stop on a dime like this.

Not playable?? If you said you can't imagine wanting to play it that way it's one thing, but you are lying if you say you can't imagine ever wanting to be able to stop in 3♦ there.

[jillybean]

After (2♠) PASS (P) 3♣ I think playing new suit as NF is a poor use of the bid and forces me to chose between 3nt or ♣ game immediately. But, perhaps I should just bid a game.

I would play 3♠ here as a forcing ♣ raise but obviously this isnt the standard treatment.

Just another impossible auction without first discussing methods

[mikeh]

I would never bid 3♦ here, as North. It is misdirected, no matter what it means and no matter whether understood as forcing.

BTW, with Qxxx xx KQJxxxx x, wouldn't we like to bid 3♦ non-forcing? I am not saying that 3♦ IS nf: I am supporting jdonn in his comment that there will be hands on which we'd like it to be nf.

3♠ should not be played 'as a strong club raise'. In real life, 3♠ will (almost) always deliver some club help, since it strongly invites partner to bid 3N with a spade stopper and will generate 4♣ without one. In the first instance, North expects a simple balancing hand to produce 9 tricks, which strongly implies at least Hx in clubs. In the second instance, it is dangerous to suggest a 10 trick minor suit contract without some support.

But the message 3♠ sends is "I have a good hand in context with my pass over 2♠... make a natural descriptive bid'. Clearly, the cheapest bid available is 3N, and so S is being encouraged to make the bid.

The ownership of the club AQ means that we can count on 5 and often 6 club tricks and partner has to have compensating values elsewhere, so I'd bid 3N. After all, it is unlikely that partner has the spades stopped, and thus 3♠ commits us to an 11 trick game (I'm NOT passing below game here).

[neilkaz]

jillybean2, on Aug 3 2007, 12:40 PM, said:

After (2♠) PASS (P) 3♣ I think playing new suit as NF is a poor use of the bid and forces me to chose between 3nt or ♣ game immediately. But, perhaps I should just bid a game.

I would play 3♠ here as a forcing ♣ raise but obviously this isnt the standard treatment.

Just another impossible auction without first discussing methods

PD is just balancing and you passed over 2♠ so I am not sure you want to play 3♠ as a forcing ♣ raise. I agree that 3♦ really should be a 1 round force here.

As for 3♠, I play it as the usual stopper ask and if you want to show a forcing club raise you can pull PD's 3NT to 4♣ or bid on over PD's 4♣.

4♣ from you after PD's 3♣ should be a strong invite to game since playing 4♣ after a weak 2 won't likely have positive IMP expectancy in the long run. PD can pass with a dead min, carry on to 5 with a normal balance, and Q bid a control with extras.

Anyhow..most play 3♠ as asking for a stopper and 3NT shows a stopper and expects (obviously) to have good play for 3NT.

I'd bid 3NT with your hand as you can hold the ace up until the third round and often then shut out West and his ♠.

Note that if East bids 3♠ with his 3 card support, you and PD may end up passing out to it.

Just my opinions .. neilkaz ..

[jillybean]

OK, I have a bad habit of creating what I think is a forcing bid where I need my partner to bid again but aren’t confident of what a cue bid means or how it will be understood, is a simple raise forcing and so on.

Take this auction for example, we have 3 different interpretations of 3♠. I need to start compiling a list of sequences that need discussion with partners.


1♦:2♣ 2♥ = how much?
Forcing minor raises
and so on..

[helene_t]

jillybean2, on Aug 3 2007, 07:40 PM, said:

After (2♠) PASS (P) 3♣ I think playing new suit as NF is a poor use of the bid and forces me to chose between 3nt or ♣ game immediately. But, perhaps I should just bid a game.

I would play 3♠ here as a forcing ♣ raise but obviously this isnt the standard treatment.

Just another impossible auction without first discussing methods

In the seqeunce
(2♠)-3♣-(p)-3♦
I think most (if not all) would say 3♦ is forcing. Advancer is unpassed.

But in your auction, advancer can hardly have a GF hand with a diamond suit worth mentioning, or any GF hand without club tollerance for that matter. I think he's more likely to have a semi-positive hand with a 6-card diamonds. In that case 3♦ could be the last makeable spot.

As for 3♠ you could call is asking for a stopper or you could call it a clubs raise. What's in a name. In either case, overcaller will bid 3N with a spade stopper and 4♣ (NF) with no spade stopper and a minimum.

Some things that might need discussion:
- How much of a stopper does 3♠ ask for? Can overcaller assume a little help (xxx or Jx or such) by advancer?
- Does 3♦ suggest some club tolerance, i.e. is overcaller expected to pass with a 6-card clubs and a singleton diamonds and a minimum?