[MrAce]

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Team game, 1♦ doubled was down 2 for +300 to EW, while other table played 6♣ and claimed after ♥ finesse failed. However at the table where slam was reached, EW bid without a ♦ overcall.

- How would u bid it ?

- If u believe 1♦ overcall matters, do u think it is the North player's fault who did not overcall with KQx Kx JTxxxx xx in other room ?

-What would u bid by West, if u disagree with his pass ?

[JLOGIC]

East made a negative double with 4-4 in the majors, showing 4-4 in the majors. How could one blame him? West passed a takeout X at the 1 level with 4 trumps... I mean...lol. If west wants to gamble good for him but it's on him when it doesn't work, east was just bidding his hand.

Personally I think wests pass is hopeless and he got what he deserved, and I'd be embarrassed to blame my partner for this result if I was west.

[mtvesuvius]

Pass is terrible and got what it deserved.

All the blame to West, East had his (only) bid.

[MrAce]

JLOGIC, on 2011-February-21, 16:20, said:

East made a negative double with 4-4 in the majors, showing 4-4 in the majors. How could one blame him? West passed a takeout X at the 1 level with 4 trumps... I mean...lol. If west wants to gamble good for him but it's on him when it doesn't work, east was just bidding his hand.

Personally I think wests pass is hopeless and he got what he deserved, and I'd be embarrassed to blame my partner for this result if I was west.

I edited the original questions after your reply, u are right about E having no fault with his bidding. But upto some experts i asked, that doesnt neccesarilly makes W in fault. Thats why i asked here.

[JLOGIC]

Passing 1D X could work out just fine. Your hand is strong enough that I would expect to be able to make a game very often. I would not be that surprised to learn I had a slam in clubs. I would also not expect to beat them more than 500 very often, LHO overcalled on a weak suit and presumably not that many HCP, I wouldn't be surprised if he had 6 diamonds. Sure AKQx is nice, but it's only 3 trump tricks at the end of the day, and if they have 6 diamonds they probably also have 3 trump tricks to begin with. I would be very worried about disaster scenarios like partner having JTxx xxxx x KJxx or something where we are cold for 3N, and they make 1D.

Yes it's possible a game goes down our way but not that likely, and it's also possible we can get them for 800 and have no slam. Those are our big win scenarios, and I view them as much less likely than getting an inadequate penalty vs our game, or us being cold for slam, or both.

I also don't really want LHO to run to 1S. This will help them lead/defend if we get to 3N later.

Basically I just view passing as a big gamble. Big gambles are not necessarily wrong in bridge, but I don't feel like this is a good spot. It's just so unilateral at a really early point in the auction, and I'm not convinced there's any edge in it at all.

That said, of course the passer is unlucky to catch a layout where you get 300 and are cold for slam, just as the passer would be lucky to catch partner with some hand where we got 800.

[JLOGIC]

Another point that is important to me at least is that when you DO have a big number it is usually when LHO has only 5 diamonds. I would expect him to always run with JTxxx, and I would expect him to likely have a good 4 card major (probably spades) since he has no HCP in diamonds and didn't make a takeout double. Yeah he could be 3253 or something (and even then when he redoubles it will be right). Anyways, my point is a lot of the time that pass is "right" LHO can profitably run. I would not sit for a double of 1S and would just bid 3N, in which case my upside has become even smaller on the pass.

[tolvyrj]

This could have been a great result in pairs where prd usually comes in with 13 cards in his hand...teams its bit greedy. Im going to make Nt in some level... lets say at least 2 level, i would have bid 2♦ and hope that prd wont pass it . then in his probable 2 of major i bid 3♣, which got to be forcing...wishful thinking, well a Reese said it...if prd passes now i have something to hold against him .
Now all prd has to do is to understand a) im not intrested in majors and b) i have something else than minimum hand and yes...♣.
In pairs my regular prd would have bid 3♦ asking stopper in Nt, but since it teams he probaply bids 4♣...then follows 4♦by me and 4♠by prd, cues and now depending am i on the mood i bid RKCB or 6♣.

[aguahombre]

tolvyrj, on 2011-February-21, 17:24, said:

i would have bid 2♦ and hope that prd wont pass it ......
Now all prd has to do is to understand a) im not intrested in majors and b) i have something else than minimum hand and yes...♣.

He probably bids 4♣...then follows (onward to 6♣.)

I edited it to include the parts which make sense to me. Pard's neg double already showed his 4-4 major suit distribution, but not his strength or his minor(s) pattern.

So, 2D seems perfect as a rebid for opener. Responder then jumps in clubs to show extra strength and the nice fit. After that, 6C seems easy.

[MrAce]

Anyone to blame North in other room for not overcalling with KQx Kx JTxxxx xx and not putting the West at his tabel on test ?

[mtvesuvius]

I would overcall that but it's not some people's style. Regardless, "putting west to the test" here is silly. West's pass is too one-sided and will backfire very often.

[MrAce]

mtvesuvius, on 2011-February-21, 18:17, said:

I would overcall that but it's not some people's style. Regardless, "putting west to the test" here is silly. West's pass is too one-sided and will backfire very often.

What would you bid as west if pass is out of question for you ? I insist on asking this because, even when not passed, the continuation may not get us to find the slam after that overcall, i just wanna know how would a pair handle this deal after 1♦ overcall and find their way to slam ? (of course i have an opinion how to bid, but i am not sure if i am being affected from the fact that i see both hands.)

[Cyberyeti]

This is yet another hand where I see somebody get a poor result after opening a short club (although it's not really the cause this time), having failed to find a club fit.

We bid 1♣(4+ cards)-(1♦)-2♣(inverted not denying 4M) and there is no problem.

If partner was 4423/4432, the big hand might have done the right thing, although I think I'd bid 3N over the X.

[gnasher]

MrAce, on 2011-February-21, 18:24, said:

What would you bid as west if pass is out of question for you ?

2NT.

[mtvesuvius]

MrAce, on 2011-February-21, 18:24, said:

What would you bid as west if pass is out of question for you ? I insist on asking this because, even when not passed, the continuation may not get us to find the slam after that overcall, i just wanna know how would a pair handle this deal after 1♦ overcall and find their way to slam ? (of course i have an opinion how to bid, but i am not sure if i am being affected from the fact that i see both hands.)

I think probably 2♦, which should be extras without any clear direction.

East will bid 3♣, West will now get a bit excited, probably bidding 3♥, East now can bid 3♠, West 4♣ etc...

[dake50]

I prefer 2D Q-bid with East hand.
'Have majors AND C-fit.'
Now Neg-X always denies C-fit.

[aguahombre]

mtvesuvius, on 2011-February-21, 19:13, said:

I think probably 2♦, which should be extras without any clear direction.

East will bid 3♣, West will now get a bit excited, probably bidding 3♥, East now can bid 3♠, West 4♣ etc...

Since your auction is exactly as if the overcall had not occurred, did 3♣ show the extra strength that the responder had? (Where 2M would have been a weak Leben-type bid in context of the known 4-4 in the majors?).

If so, it seems great. If not, I think I would have to bid 4♣ instead of 3 with the East hand/2D.

[rhm]

I think there are a couple of inferences available to West:

- It is apparent to overcaller that he was bidding without any tops in his suit so is likely to have extra length for his overcall.
- opponents are not vulnerable and probably have a ♠ fit anyway
- West is strong enough to insist on game opposite a negative double, which means a successful double will require you to take at least 9 tricks. You have 5. Are you confident to find another 4 tricks?
- Since there are at least 10 ♦s between you and overcaller with partner being likely short in ♦ and opponents have a probable ♠ fit, are you surprised that your side has a fit in ♣?

Are you still convinced passing the negative double is a serious option?

For the record I believe 2♦ (not an immediate 2NT) is fairly obvious. This is a good hand for a suit contract. If partner bids ♣ or ♥, I am interested.

Rainer Herrmann

[OleBerg]

I can only echo other posters comments about the pass.

I would definitely overcall 1♦ (and I'd rather bid 2♦ than pass).

After partners negative double, I'd bid 2♦. And I'm not letting partner off the hook below 3NT. 2NT is a big misunderstanding.

[gszes]

1c 1d x p
2d p 3c p
3d p 5c p
6c

[gnasher]

Poor East. He picks up KJ10x QJxx x xxxx, and things start well for him: he gets to make a negative double of 1♦, showing most of his shape in one go. Then partner bids a game-forcing 2♦, which is nice, especially as responder has another easy call with 3♣. Now opener bids 3♦, presumably asking for a diamond stop. East has a fair hand for the bidding so far - four-card support and a singleton diamond, opposite what appears to be weak length. Still, he knows his partner is a bit of an overbidder, so instead of 4♦, which his hand is worth, he jumps to 5♣ to try to slow things down a bit. Then partner self-raises to 6♣ anyway. That drifts a couple off after a spade to the ace and a heart return, but maybe it doesn't matter - 5♣ might have gone down on the same defence. Then somebody wonders whether 3NT might have made.

In another world, East has AKxx Qxxx x xxxx, and sees the same pleasant start to the auction, but after 3♣ opener bids 3♥, which presumably sets hearts as trumps. East's hand has plusses and minuses, but it seems reasonable to bid 3♠. Over that, opener bids a serious 4♣. The weak clubs are a slight worry, but slam is good opposite x AKxx xxx AKQxx, and we're still below game, so East cue-bids 4♦. Now opener bids Keycard and follows with 6♣. Luckily East knows that that's a place to play not a grand-slam try, so he passes. Sadly, the trumps don't come in for no loser, and 6♣ goes down again. Then somebody wonders whether 3NT might have made.