[phil_20686]

Phil, on 2012-August-09, 09:02, said:

I doubled. Partner pulled to 5♦ with QJxx x AQxxx Jxx. He said, "I thought double denied 4♠" (?!).

So partner had QJxx in suit you were short in, very soft cards, and minimum values, and thought 11 tricks was on the radar opposite a passed hand? even if you are 3244 like Kxx xx Kxxx Axxx, you appear to have no play whatsoever.

I would be defending 4Hx, and be unhappy lho was 65. 4S is too big a risk of running into rho with AQJx. Partner is allowed to make a t/o double with three spades. Who things a 4-3 spade fit here will be cheap?

[Phil]

phil_20686, on 2012-August-09, 11:31, said:

So partner had QJxx in suit you were short in

I had ♠T7xx.

[lalldonn]

I double and second choice is pass since it's such a minimum for the double. I would never bid such a bad spade suit on a balanced hand here. Has your partner never made a takeout double with three spades before?

Of course if partner pulls then it should be to 4♠ any time he has four of them.

[wyman]

Phil, on 2012-August-09, 11:52, said:

I had ♠T7xx.

"I thought double denied 4S" -- partner thought he had QJxx opposite your shortness, but still decided to try for 11 tricks (is the other Phil's point).

[han]

Besides Phil's arguments, a good reason for not bidding 4S is that in some circles sometimes some partners make takeout doubles with fewer than 4 spades.

[Phil]

han, on 2012-August-09, 12:55, said:

Besides Phil's arguments, a good reason for not bidding 4S is that in some circles sometimes some partners make takeout doubles with fewer than 4 spades.

I had implied that in my second point, but thanks for making it more clear.

[bluecalm]

I'd double but I think this spot is difficult and I wouldn't be surprised if pass or 4S were better.

Quote

s that in some circles sometimes some partners make takeout doubles with fewer than 4 spades.

Interesting but I think we would be informed about such peculiar style in the OP.

[nigel_k]

TWO4BRIDGE, on 2012-August-09, 03:27, said:

If Responder only raised to 3♥, then a DBL ( Responsive ) by Advancer would show the MINORS and deny a ♠ fit:

p - (2♥) - DBL - (3♥)
DBL

Why would it be any different here?

It is more likely we want to defend. And we don't have to worry partner will choose the wrong minor because with 3244 he will pass the double which is what we want, and with 3055 he can bid 4NT.

[aguahombre]

Phil, on 2012-August-09, 09:02, said:

I doubled. Partner pulled to 5♦ with QJxx x AQxxx Jxx. He said, "I thought double denied 4♠" (?!).

The good news is that 4♥ makes (LHO has 1615) however, 5♦ was 500, so only lose 2. 4♠ is very cheap.

Well, you had a chance for "cheap". Apparently the other player in your partner's seat has different standards for a direct double of 2H; certainly the counterpart in your seat didn't pass 4H after a direct double.

[phil_20686]

bluecalm, on 2012-August-09, 13:27, said:

Interesting but I think we would be informed about such peculiar style in the OP.

I assume that this is a joke?

[TimG]

phil_20686, on 2012-August-09, 11:31, said:

So partner had QJxx in suit you were short in, very soft cards, and minimum values, and thought 11 tricks was on the radar opposite a passed hand?

Pulling the double doesn't mean he expects to make 11 tricks. It might just mean that he thinks 5D will be less expensive than 4HX.

[kuhchung]

655321, on 2012-August-08, 23:05, said:

Can't imagine anything here except double (um, not penalties, either!), thought it would be unanimous.

I want my upvote already.

[kfay]

Double is obvious.

[JLOGIC]

Phil, on 2012-August-09, 09:02, said:

I doubled. Partner pulled to 5♦ with QJxx x AQxxx Jxx. He said, "I thought double denied 4♠" (?!).

Interesting post, one of my partners very recently texted me something like "what do you bid with 4144, 4153, 4252, 4162, 4054 etc on this exact auction, what hands do you pass with, etc. Apparently some other good players thought that you should not double over 2H X 4H with 4 spades, just bidding 4 spades normally, and thus that pulling to 5m with 4 spades and 5m was correct (and passing or bidding 4N with 4144). Obv 4 small spades might be an exception.

He and I both thought you should bid 4S if you're gonna pull with 4 spades (but you might pass with 4 spades). The problem is, is partner supposed to then pull that if he has only 3 spades? 33(43)? 3244? 32(53)? 31(54)? Are you just supposed to play the 4-3? Is initial bidder supposed to never X with 51(43) and 5044 hand types? What if he had 16 or 17 or 18 with a double and bid type hand, is he supposed to go past 4S with that hand type every time?

I do not think these problems are that easy to solve, or that your partner is so crazy in his view (even though I don't agree).

[JLOGIC]

bluecalm, on 2012-August-09, 13:27, said:

I'd double but I think this spot is difficult and I wouldn't be surprised if pass or 4S were better.

Yeah, pass appeals to me too, but I guess our hand is just too good. It seems like such a crappy hand for both offense and defense though lol, but I guess if partner is 41xx it's a good hand, as long as he bids 4S.

[Phil]

JLOGIC, on 2012-August-11, 04:27, said:

Interesting post, one of my partners very recently texted me something like "what do you bid with 4144, 4153, 4252, 4162, 4054 etc on this exact auction, what hands do you pass with, etc. Apparently some other good players thought that you should not double over 2H X 4H with 4 spades, just bidding 4 spades normally, and thus that pulling to 5m with 4 spades and 5m was correct (and passing or bidding 4N with 4144). Obv 4 small spades might be an exception.

He and I both thought you should bid 4S if you're gonna pull with 4 spades (but you might pass with 4 spades). The problem is, is partner supposed to then pull that if he has only 3 spades? 33(43)? 3244? 32(53)? 31(54)?

3244 / 33(43) seem like they will pass the double a lot of the time. Hands with 4-bad-2-(43) seem like they will pass too. Pulling with a singleton + average offense seems normal.

Quote

Are you just supposed to play the 4-3?

Yeah, I think sometimes you have to, especially if you want your doubles to include 42(52) or 4-good-1 (62). If the short hand is taking the tap, it might play OK.

Quote

Is initial bidder supposed to never X with 51(43) and 5044 hand types? What if he had 16 or 17 or 18 with a double and bid type hand, is he supposed to go past 4S with that hand type every time?

51(43) / 5044 are problematic, even with five soft ones. I think with extras you can overcall and then x 4♥. With a one bid hand, I guess you just pretend you are 4144.

Quote

I do not think these problems are that easy to solve, or that your partner is so crazy in his view (even though I don't agree).

I hope I never implied he was.

I think the double doesn't deny four spades is the superior approach, even though it can lead to some awkward continuations later.

Preempts work.

[JLOGIC]

Phil, on 2012-August-11, 11:09, said:

3244 / 33(43) seem like they will pass the double a lot of the time. Hands with 4-bad-2-(43) seem like they will pass too. Pulling with a singleton + average offense seems normal.

Obviously if the t/o Xer has that. I meant if the responsive Xer has that and his partner bids 4S, should he pass when he has 3 spades? If he passes he will be in a 4-3 if the t/o Xer is supposed to routinely pull the X to 4S with 4 of them and if he bids he might be pulling out of a 5-3 if the t/o Xer has 5 spades.

[pigpenz]

I would tend to pass
somdays your lucky somedays you aren't, but I would think on most days your gonna beat4♥

[gszes]

cannot imagine any call other than x (tox) surely we do not wish to
emphasize our xxxx spades suit?? this x should let p know we are
near max for our passed hand and they wherever they decide to
go we should be happy with their informed decision.

[jdeegan]

4♠ seems right. Partner is marked with either one or two cards in ♥. Worst case he is 3-2-4-4. We may go down in 4♠, but maybe they will take the push? Imo, double is horrible. It more or less denies 4♠ and says "the opponents are idiots". RHO knows how many ♥ his side has, so are you willing to play him/her for a fool? My duplicate games are usually tougher than that.