[Cyberyeti]

Dealer S vul EW teams

---

This hand occurred in the local county league and spawned a complete line of +510s in the top division when both blacks split, 6♠ was bid twice in 20+ tables. We won't talk about the 460 or the 7N-1.

We were EW and would have had a shot at the slam as we could show a hand that was 4225 and good enough to GF opposite a 1/1 response, but whether N has another go is arguable.

How do others cope ?

[mr1303]

Just practicing strong club relays again.

1C (strong) 1H (4+ spades, GF)
1S (relay) 2C (43xx)
2D (relay) 2H (4333)
2S (relay) 3D (4 controls)
3H (relay) 4H (1 control in spades, clubs, diamonds, no spade queen)
6S

[phil_20686]

1c-1h*
3d*-?

1h=[S] 3d = 18-19 with four card support, then north should make some kind of non serious move and south will drive after he finds the club ace.

[Lord Molyb]

1C- 1S- 4S- 5C- 6S at our table.

[Cyberyeti]

Lord Molyb, on 2012-December-16, 09:18, said:

1C- 1S- 4S- 5C- 6S at our table.

1♣-1♠-4♠ at ours, if we were bidding it, we'd show a 4225 GF via a GF unbal 2N rebid, still uncertain if N would go on.

[Fluffy]

2 ways to bid south's hand for me:

1♣-1♠
4♣

strong hand with 4 spades and 5+ clubs, clubs should be better than this normally

1♣-1♠
2NT-3NT
4♠

balanced 19 with 4 spades. This one doesn't even get to slam.

[PhilKing]

I got to the same systemic position (opener showing 18-19 HCP specifically 4225 by the time we get to 4♠).

We can all construct plausible auctions to slam, but what is the risk? I looked at a few hands (32) and my conclusion was that moving over 4 ♠ was a losing action. You get to some good slams, but occasionally reach a dubious six or go off in five. This was despite the face that I deemed a few of the 18 counts as being a downgrade (eg with lots of queens). I did not look at upgraded 17 counts, opposite which slam could well be decent and might well mean that moving is OK.

I was initially in favour of bidding but am now convinced otherwise, though it's not a big deal one way or the other. I tend to bid with rose-tinted specs in this situation, but being more conservative is probably best.

There was a similar board when we played Hinden in the last match of the premier league - ♠AQ7 ♥J865 ♦J4 ♣AJT5. Partner shows 18-19 bal 2452 and you decide to key card. You find you are off one plus the trump queen and stop in five which goes one off when trumps are 4-1 (flat board) partner having upgraded ♠K8 ♥A972 ♦AK872 ♣K7. In truth my system is at fault - one needs to get this hand defined much lower so one can ask or cue at a safer level.

[SteveMoe]

MR Lite:
1♣ - 1♥ 8-11 Artificial GF
1N [17-19] - 2♣
2♠ - 4♠
4N-5♥ 2 w/o
5N - 6♦ specific K
6♠

4♠ and not 3♠ because of 4333 shape. If 3♠ we can control bid.

FWIW 1) I really like mr1303's auction. Lots identified below 4♠
FWIW 2) 29 HCP between 2 balanced hands will keep a lot of well meaning folks out of slam. Not wanting to do the thinking or take the risk....
FWIW 3) What makes this work is both hands are Primes rich and we have lots of working HCP w/ a source of tricks in ♣
FWIW 4) South, having only 4 losers in ♠ owes one slam try.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

Just practicing my resulting:

1C - 1S
4S ( ~19 hcp ) - 5S ( needing 2 of top 3 for any chance )
6S

[mike777]

Cyberyeti, on 2012-December-16, 04:51, said:

Dealer S vul EW teams

---

This hand occurred in the local county league and spawned a complete line of +510s in the top division when both blacks split, 6♠ was bid twice in 20+ tables. We won't talk about the 460 or the 7N-1.

We were EW and would have had a shot at the slam as we could show a hand that was 4225 and good enough to GF opposite a 1/1 response, but whether N has another go is arguable.

How do others cope ?

tough one we can see we are too good for 1c=1s=4s so maybe?


2nt(20-21)=3c
3s=4h?(rkc in spades)
etc


but perhaps that is double dummy bidding.

[Bbradley62]

After playing too much with GIB, I open 2N in South, taking a 20th point for the fifth club. But I still would have to have had my Wheaties that morning to get there with a 4x3 10-count in North.

[Cyberyeti]

TWO4BRIDGE, on 2012-December-16, 12:50, said:

Just practicing my resulting:

1C - 1S
4S ( ~19 hcp ) - 5S ( needing 2 of top 3 for any chance )
6S

Except partner's hand was Axxx, Ax, AQ, KQxxx or QJ10x, Ax, AQ, KQJxx which is also a reasonable 6.

Quote

I got to the same systemic position (opener showing 18-19 HCP specifically 4225 by the time we get to 4♠).

Ours is potentially 18-21 and we get there by 4♣ (1♣-1♠-2N(GF unbal)-3♣(semi forced)-4♣(4225)) now I suspect it's going to go 4♦-4N-5♥-5N(anything else)-6♠(no K♥ or Q♦) now it's an interesting question whether we bid 7.

Partner's 1♣-1♠ means that if he only has 4 spades, then he's 4333 as he'd bid 2♣/1♦/1♥ with the 4-4s. If he's 4333 without the J♣ when you need 2 3-2 breaks so it's below odds, but goes up to 3-2 spades if partner has J♣, or 3-2 clubs if partner has J♠ or excellent if partner has both black Js barring a ludicrous diamond break.

If he has 6 spades, there's no issue unless he's 64(12), if he has 5, then 5233 is fine, 5xx4 is fine, 5323 needs 3-2 clubs if he doesn't have the J, 5242 is fine, 5422 without J♣/5431 are the flies in the ointment requiring 3-3 and 4-3 club breaks respectively.

In the field I was playing in, I wouldn't want to take these odds on I think.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

1C - 1S
3NT (1) - 4C (2)
... (3)

(1) semibal. forcing raise, 18-19
(2) to honor, some SI, given the controls, but a lazy 4S is possible
(3) ace asking, what ever, the Ace of clubs is gold and enough

In the end, South will move, if he sees, that the 5 clubs are good, but
he wont bid above 4S, North has 4333 and only inv. strength, facing a semi
bal. partner, he wont move.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Mbodell]

mr1303, on 2012-December-16, 05:22, said:

Just practicing strong club relays again.

1C (strong) 1H (4+ spades, GF)
1S (relay) 2C (43xx)
2D (relay) 2H (4333)
2S (relay) 3D (4 controls)
3H (relay) 4H (1 control in spades, clubs, diamonds, no spade queen)
6S

It is probably not great odds, but I think I relay to 7♠, and would do so opposite your auction to 4♥ if placing the contract then.

1♣ (strong) - 1♠ (GF, bal or both reds)
1nt (relay) - 2♠ (GF, 4333 w/ 4M)
2nt (relay) - 3♦ (4=3=3=3)
3♥ (ctl ask) - 4♣ (4 ctls)
4♥ (location?) - 4nt (1 of top 2 ♠, 0 or 2 top 2 ♥)
-- at this point I might just bid 7♠
5♣ (location?) - 5♠ (1 of top 2 in each minor, no ♠Q)
5nt (location?) - 6♣ (no ♥Q)
-- this is the last point I will be able to bail in 6♠

7 still looks pretty good to me at this point since I know we have 13 tricks if both black suits split 3-2 (just under 50%). And partner could still have ♦Q or ♣J or ♠J or many cards that lets us survive non-optimal black splits (even ♣T or ♠T might up the odds enough).

Alternatively, I could not do a control ask but ask keycard in spades, and this might get the signoff in 6♠. Then the auction goes:
3♠ (♠ key card) - 4♥ (2 w/o ♠Q)
4nt (all the K, specific K) - 5♦ (no ♣K, have ♦K)
5♥ (♥K?) - 5♠ (no)
6♦ (♦Q?) - 6♠ (no)

And now I have the choice again where black jacks could make grand very good, but I know no diamond Q.

[blackshoe]

Cyberyeti, on 2012-December-16, 04:51, said:

Dealer S vul EW teams

---

This hand occurred in the local county league and spawned a complete line of +510s in the top division when both blacks split, 6♠ was bid twice in 20+ tables. We won't talk about the 460 or the 7N-1.

We were EW and would have had a shot at the slam as we could show a hand that was 4225 and good enough to GF opposite a 1/1 response, but whether N has another go is arguable.

How do others cope ?

Hm. At this vulnerability, Romex Forcing Club.

1♣-1NT: 17+ HCP, usually 6+ controls, artificial, forcing; 4 controls
2♣-2♠: both bids are natural
4NT-5♣: spade raise with "extras", a slam try; control bid
5♦-5♠: control bid; sign off denying a heart control
6♠-Pass

If we were vulnerable, Romex:

1NT-2♠: 18-21 HCP roughly, 4-5 losers, usually 6+ controls, artificial, forcing; 4 controls
3♣-3♠: both bids are natural
4NT-5♣: spade raise with "extras", a slam try; control bid
5♦-5♠: control bid; sign off denying a heart control
6♠-Pass

Note the similarities in the two auctions.

[bigbenvic]

blackshoe, South opens and the way I read your bidding, north doesn't have 17+ (or 18-21) so a nice set of auctions but won't work here.

[Bbradley62]

bigbenvic, on 2012-December-16, 22:58, said:

blackshoe, South opens and the way I read your bidding, north doesn't have 17+ (or 18-21) so a nice set of auctions but won't work here.

Blackshoe is showing bids and explanations for each round of bidding. In the first auction, South opens 1N, for which the explanation is "17+ HCP, usually 6+ controls, artificial, forcing". North responds 1NT, which is explained after the semi-colon as "4 controls". At no time does Blackshoe's explanation indicate that North has the 17+ hand.

[sfi]

I gave these hands a try in four systems I play regularly:

- Strong club relay gets to 7♠ because we're optimistic - responder might have a spare black jack lurking around. Anyway things always break 3-2 in bidding contests so you need to bid the grand here to get the full 10 points.
1♣ - 2♣ (bal w/4 card major)
2♦ - 3♦ (4333)
3♠ - 4♦ (4 AK controls)
4♥ - 4NT (A or K in ♠, nothing in ♥)
7♠ - Pass

- Precision-based system gets to 6♠ since opener knows responder can't have the ♠K and either black jack.
1♣ - 2♦ (8-10 or 14-15 bal)
2NT (♣) - 3♠ (3+♣, 4♠)
4♦ (cue, 1st) - 4♥ (last train)
5♣ (cue, 2nd) - 5♦ (cue, 2nd)
5♥ (cue, 1st) - 6♣ (cue, 1st)
6♠ - Pass

- Standard
1♣ - 1♠
4♠ - Pass

- 2/1
2NT - 3NT
Pass

This small data sample leads to two semi-flippant conclusions:
- Auctions are longer playing strong club.
- Slam is easier to find with a strong club system.

I think the last two auctions would be fairly common, and it's hard for either hand to diagnose the strength appropriately. These are the sorts of hands where you should pick up imps playing strong club.

[blackshoe]

bigbenvic, on 2012-December-16, 22:58, said:

blackshoe, South opens and the way I read your bidding, north doesn't have 17+ (or 18-21) so a nice set of auctions but won't work here.

Bbradley62, on 2012-December-16, 23:24, said:

Blackshoe is showing bids and explanations for each round of bidding. In the first auction, South opens 1N, for which the explanation is "17+ HCP, usually 6+ controls, artificial, forcing". North responds 1NT, which is explained after the semi-colon as "4 controls". At no time does Blackshoe's explanation indicate that North has the 17+ hand.

Precisely, although the first auction South's opening is 1♣; the second auction South opens 1NT. Sorry if I wasn't clear.

Romex Forcing Club is very much like Precision, though it has elements from both Romex and Blue Team Club as well. Romex is essentially a 2/1 GF system, but with more strong and forcing opening bids than "standard" 2/1 (1NT, 2♣, 2♦, and 2NT; the first three are artificial).

[rhm]

PhilKing, on 2012-December-16, 11:34, said:

....
In truth my system is at fault - one needs to get this hand defined much lower so one can ask or cue at a safer level.

Polish Club lets you do this

1♣*--1♠
2♦**-2♥***
2♠

* Polish Club
** 2♦ is called Odwrotka (fit-reverse), 18+ game forcing, 3+ cards in responders major.
*** 7-10 HCP, 4 cards in spades. The variant used here to respond to 2♦ is called Bubrotka and popular in Poland. There are of course others.
Now 2♠ sets spades and gives plenty of room to find out below 4♠ that slam is good.

Rainer Herrmann