[straube]

Rough draft of another club structure. I think RobF tried to help me a long time ago with 1H as a DN response, so I may have done this before but it feels different.This structure robs the positives of an important step, but it's organized in such a way as to preserve at least some of the reverse relays (also +1) so this would significantly impair slam building. OTOH, it gives SPs one step but more importantly it facilitates natural bidding after a semipositive. I really like my present structure, but it does bother me that we can't settle in 2m after partner's negative (1S) or semipositive (1H) response. In practice, it hasn't seemed to hurt very much and I love our slam auctions, but it's an ongoing theoretical concern for me.

One nice thing about this structure is that the relays for positives and semipositives are identical. It's just that opener breaks relays with the former to show his own pattern and in the latter to announce hearts and a limited hand.

One thought I had was to raise the responding requirements to that which Moscito uses (GF=6+ QPs, SP=3-5, DN=0-2) which would help offset the space this structure has awarded the weaker hands at the expense of the GF hands.

1C
.....1D-2-4 QPs
..........1H-natural or ask
...............1S-bal, C, D, C/D, C/D/M
....................1N-ask
.........................other-natural with hearts
.........................2C-bal
.........................2D-C/D
.........................2H-C
.........................2D-C/D/M
.........................2S-D
...............1N-S, S/C, S/D
...............2C-S/H or S/H/m
...............2D-H/C
...............2H-H
...............2S-H/D
..........1S-natural, limited, probably forcing
..........1N-balanced
..........2C-natural
..........2D-natural
..........2H-4H/5C (this is to avoid rebid problems after 1C-1D, 1H-1N)
..........2S-5D/5C
..........2N-19ish
.....1H-0-1 QPs
...............1S-various
....................1N-no 6-cd suit?
.........................P-17-18? split ranges nicely but wrongsides
..............................2L-to play
...............1N-bal (19-21?)
...............2C-stayman
...............2D-transfer
...............2H-transfer
...............2S-minors
...............2N-GF

..........1S-bal, C, D, C/D, C/D/M
...............1N-asks
....................2C-bal
.........................2D-asks
..............................2H-4H
...................................2S-4S
........................................2N-4D/4C
........................................3C-3334
........................................3D-3343
........................................3H-3433
........................................3S-4333
..............................2H-H
..............................2S-H/D
.........................2D-C/D
.........................2H-C
.........................2S-C/D/M
.........................2N-D
...............2C-S/H, S/H/m
...............2D-S/C
...............2H-S
...............2S-S/D
..........1N-S, S/C, S/D
..........2C-S/H, S/H/m
..........2D-H/C
..........2H-H
...............2S-asks
....................2N-6H, bal
.........................3D-2623
..............................3H-2632
..............................3S-3622
..............................3N-2722
.........................3C-5H332
..............................3H-2533
..............................3S-3523
..............................3N-3532
..........2S-H/D

[straube]

So the first round responses would have frequencies approximately....

1D-32%
1H-21%
1S-27%
1N-8%
2C-4%
2D-3%
2H-3%

[straube]

How about this for a passed hand structure? In these cases, it's better to pay more attention to the semipositive and negative hands. For PH, if you were playing 1D as 0-7 it would probably account for 60% or so of responses. This would split that between 1D and 1H.

[straube]

So it goes 1C-1D showing a semipositive and we need to decide what opener's rebids are...

Thinking...

1H-natural or GF relay. If natural, it can handle longer clubs because...1C-1H, 1N-3C would show this and
.....if the clubs aren't so great, opener can just raise to 2N.
1S-natural, could be canape
.....1N-not forcing
..........2C-natural, canape
..........2D-natural, canape
..........2H-5S/4H
..........2S-6S
..........2N-invitational, 5S/4m
.....2C-clubs
.....2D-diamonds
.....2H-hearts
.....2S-3+ spades?
..........3 other-canape?
.....2N-game forcing
.....other-game forcing
1N-17-18
2C-clubs
2D-diamonds
2H-4S/5H
2S-5D/5C
2N-19
3m-invitational
3M-invitational

One of the core issues seems to be whether it's right for responder to raise spades with three spades. Anyway, we have to be miles ahead of Meckwell here who 1) don't know that responder has 5-7 hcps and whose continuations after 1C-1D, 1S are something like...

1n-0-4 any
2C-5-7, less than 3 spades
2D-5-7, 3+ spades
2H-5-7, 5 hearts
2S-0-4, 4 spades

[straube]

How about 1C-1D, 1S-

P-very weak, 3 spades
1N-nf, could have 5 hearts without a rebid
.....2C-clubs
.........2H-5 hearts, 0-1 spade
.....2D-diamonds
..........2H-5 hearts,0-1 spade
2C-artificial GF
2D-six hearts OR plans rebid
.....2H-no fit
..........2S-3 spades, nf but constructive
2H-five hearts, 2 spades
2S-3 spades, medium
2N-4 spades
3m-good suit

[straube]

We tried it out. Pretty sure dividing 0-7 between 1D (5-7) and 1H (0-4) pays benefits.

P P 1C P

1D-5-7 hcps
.....1H-natural or GF relay
..........1S-bal, C/D, C, C/D/M, D
...............1N-GF relay
....................2C-bal
....................2D-C/D
....................2H-C
....................2S-C/D/M
....................etc-D
...............2C-H/C, nf
....................2D-to play
....................2H-preference
....................2S-artificial GF
....................2N-invitational
....................3m-invitational
....................3H-invitational, four hearts
...............2D-H/D, nf
....................2H-preference
....................2S-artificial GF
....................2N-invitational
....................3C-to play
....................3D-invitational, four diamonds
....................3H-invitational, four hearts
...............2H-six hearts
....................2S-artificial GF
..........1N-S/C, S, S/D
...............2C-GF relay
....................2D-S/C
....................2H-S
....................etc-S/D
...............2D-H/D, nf
....................2H-preference
....................2S-6 spades
....................2N-invitational
....................3C-artificial GF
...............2H-6 hearts
....................2S-6 spades
...............2S-3 spades
....................2N-ask
.........................3C-3415
.........................3D-3451
.........................3H-3514
.........................3S-3541
...............2N-H/C
....................3C-four clubs
....................3D-artificial GF
....................3H-four hearts
...............3C-4H/6C
...............3S-4 spades (4414 or 4441)
..........2C-H/S/m, H/S
...............2D-GF relay
...............2H-H
..........2D-H/C
...............2H-GF relay
...............3H-H
..........2H-H
...............2S-GF relay
..........etc-H/D
.....1S-nf, 4+ spades unbalanced
..........1N-natural
...............2C-5C
...............2D-5D
...............2H-5S/4H
...............2S-6S
..........2C-6C (odd but I think is right)
..........2D-6D
..........2H-6H
..........2S-3S (odd but again seems to work)
...............2N-4144, invitational
...............3C-4S/5C, invitational
...............3D-4S/5D, invitational
...............3H-5S/4H, invitational
...............3S-5S, invitational
..........2N-artificial GF
...............3C-5C
...............3D-5D
...............3H-5S/4H
...............3S-6S
...............3N-other
..........3C-3S/6C
..........3D-3S/6D
..........3H-3S/6H
..........3S-4S
.....1N-17-19
.....2C-clubs, limited
.....2D-diamonds, limited
.....2H-4S/5H, limited
.....2S-4S/6H, limited
.....2N-5D/5C, limited
.....3L-invitational
1H-0-4
.....P-hearts (could be 4S/5H)
.....1S-asks 1N or responder to name 6-cd suit
..........1N-no 6-cd suit
...............2C-to play
...............2D-to play
...............2H-5S/4H, nf
...............2S-to play
.....1N-17-21
.....2C-asks major
..........2D-four+ hearts
...............2H-2 hearts, 22-23
...............2S-4 spades, 3 hearts, 22-23
...............2N-3 hearts, 22-23
...............3m-4 spades, 5+m
...............3H-4 hearts
..........2H-four+ spades
...............2S-2 spades, 22-23
...............2N-3 spades, 22-23
...............3m-4 hearts, 5+ m
...............3S-4 spades
..........2S-no major
...............2N-22-23
...............3m-5+ m
...............3H-4S/6H
...............3S-6S/4H
.....2D-5+ hearts, lightly invitational+
.....2H-5+ spades, lightly invitational+
.....2S-minors
.....2N-24+, GF
.....3m-invitational
.....3M-GF
.....4m-GF
1S-GF, bal, C/D, C, C/D/M, D
.....1N-relay
..........2C-bal
...............2H-reverse relay, H
...............etc-reverse relay, H/D
..........2D-C/D
..........2H-C
..........2S-C/D
..........etc-D
.....2C-reverse relay, S/C
.....2D-reverse relay, S
.....etc-reverse relay, S/D
1N-GF, S/C, S, S/D
2C-GF, S/H/m, S/H
2D-GF, H/C
2H-GF, H
etc-GF, H/D

[glen]

straube, on 2012-December-27, 01:47, said:

We tried it out. Pretty sure dividing 0-7 between 1D (5-7) and 1H (0-4) pays benefits ...

Is this split optimal? Would 4-7/0-3 or 3.5-7/0-3.5 be better?

[straube]

glen, on 2012-December-27, 20:33, said:

Is this split optimal? Would 4-7/0-3 or 3.5-7/0-3.5 be better?

You're pointing out that 4-7/0-3 would be a more equal division. Good point. Not sure, but I think Meckwell divide 0-7 into 0-4 and 6-7 with 5 being a judgment call. I think that 0-4 and 5-7 is pretty good because it's rare to have 0 or 1 point, so with 0-4 you can usually assume 3 and be about right.

We actually use relay points (A=3, K=2, Q=1). A GF is 5+, a DN is 0-2 and a semipositive is 2-4. With 2 we are allowed judgment depending on whether we have useful jacks or spot cards or distribution.

What do you think of the basic approach? I thought it would get more interest but oh well.

[glen]

straube, on 2012-December-27, 21:20, said:

... We actually use relay points (A=3, K=2, Q=1). A GF is 5+, a DN is 0-2 and a semipositive is 2-4. With 2 we are allowed judgment depending on whether we have useful jacks or spot cards or distribution.

What do you think of the basic approach? ...

The basic approach is great, and I especially like the use of relay points (sometimes called ZZ or AKQ points). I prefer to play the semipositive as 2-4 ZZ, and the DN as 0-1.

[akhare]

IMO, this is just another band aid solution and while it's better than using 1H for all semi-positives, trying partition the hands into DN / SP / GF immediately creates more problems than it solves.

A better approach is to partition the hands into potential DN / SP+ / GF hands (a la IMPrecision).

While it's true that the SP responses don't create a forcing pass situation, it's a small disadvantage compared to the frequent awkward situations created after a 1C - 1H (SP). Yes, there are more band aids available after 1C - 1H (SP), but a kludge is just a kludge.

[straube]

Well I did a tally on a different thread (which I'll repost here) and I did a new tally for Meckwell. Not absolutely sure what their responses are and I assumed 2H+ were used for 4441s. I used different hands for both so things don't square exactly, but you get the drift...

............1D semipositive.....................Meckwell
1D........48%.......................................65%
1H........26%.......................................5%
1S.........12%......................................3%
1N..........4%.......................................6%
2C..........4%.......................................2%
2D..........2%......................................15%
etc..........4%.......................................4%

So Meckwell is concentrated in 1D and 2D responses. I think this is awful.

Then I looked at Imprecision for PH with (unfortunately) an entirely new set of hands. and came up with...

1D.........32%
1H.........33%
1S..........17%
1N.........13%
2C...........2%
2D...........1%
etc...........2%

which is probably the best looking distribution graph of the three. Sorry Adam if my tally is not quite right. It was only a hundred hands.

I think I'm probably with Atul in saying that Imprecision is better in 3rd/4th seat. I think it's close, but I'd rather be splitting up a 5-10 pt range between hearts, spades, and other holdings as opposed to splitting the range between 5-7 and 8-10. Now 1D semipositive has the compensation that the 8-10s show suit information AND a GF right away. Still, I think almost everyone would choose the suit information first and narrowing strength later. I still think 1D semipositive is a big improvement over 1D 0-7 in 3/4 and is pretty simple.