[steve2005]

This may seem radical:
I think bidding 2♥ is 65 with a big hand.
and doubling shows 4♥ at imps extra but at mp not really anything extra but may have if bids again..

[wank]

steve2005, on 2015-July-05, 16:10, said:

This may seem radical:
I think bidding 2♥ is 65 with a big hand.
and doubling shows 4♥ at imps extra but at mp not really anything extra but may have if bids again..

it might be radical, or it might just be wrong. if you have kx Akx xxx AKQxx which bid would you make if you've removed all the double cards from your box?

[Cyberyeti]

wank, on 2015-July-05, 16:54, said:

it might be radical, or it might just be wrong. if you have kx Akx xxx AKQxx which bid would you make if you've removed all the double cards from your box?

What after I opened 2N on that ?

[Liversidge]

helene_t, on 2015-July-05, 12:38, said:

Dbl can't promise four hearts here. What would you do with Ax-AQx-xxx-AQJxx?

Something else (maybe off topic): you really should open 1nt with this hand.

My understanding is that you need 16+ HCP to reverse. Is this still the case after RHO has overcalled?

Could you explain why 1NT is right for this hand? With two doubletons it doesn't fit the standard guidelines. Is it because with 13 points you have to open but don't think the clubs are good enough to rebid after a 1♠ response.

[MrAce]

I am with those who says double of 2♦ does not and should not be spared only for showing hearts. There are many other hands that needs to start double. Thus 4 card hearts bids hearts with extras and passes with minimum since we are not in pass out seat and that we have a pd.

2♥ for me can be bid by 12 hcps if I am 6-5. Because 6-5 is a good indicator that the bidding can get high real quick and we may not have a comfortable bid in our next turn. But if I am bidding with only 5-4 then I must have extras for it.

[Liversidge]

helene_t, on 2015-July-05, 12:38, said:

Dbl can't promise four hearts here. What would you do with Ax-AQx-xxx-AQJxx?

Something else (maybe off topic): you really should open 1nt with this hand.

My understanding is that you need 16+ HCP to reverse. Is this still the case after RHO has overcalled?

Could you explain why 1NT is right for this hand? With two doubletons it doesn't fit the standard guidelines. Is it because with 13 points you have to open but don't think the clubs are good enough to rebid after a 1♠ response.

[fourdad]

You hold a minimum opening hand.
Yes 2♥ is a reverse.

best way to tell your pd this is to PASS!

If he cannot bid again the hand does not belong to you.

[Liversidge]

blackshoe, on 2015-July-05, 13:27, said:

A reverse is defined as "a simple bid at the two level in a higher ranking suit than the first bid suit (NA meaning; in other parts of the world, including England, such a bid might be at the three level in a lower ranking suit — the 'high reverse')". This bid causes partner to have to bid at the three level to show support for the first bid suit — that's the key to "is it a reverse?"

Whether a reverse shows extra values depends on what responder's first response shows. Consider the uncontested auction 1♥-2♦-2♠. Is 2♠ a reverse? Yes it is, by the definition. Does it show extra values? Well, that depends. If you're playing Acol, Standard American, or some other system where the 2♦ bid is at best forcing one round, it logically must show extra values. If you're playing 2/1 or similar, where 2♦ is already forcing to game, a reverse need not show extra values, and some pairs will agree that it does not, and some will agree that it does. The former will often say "that's not a reverse" or "we don't play reverses", but they're wrong. In either case, a reverse shows shape: a reversing opener will be at least 5-4 in his two suits, and the lower ranking will definitely be longer. If it's not longer, he would have started with the higher ranking suit.

That explains some of the differing guidelines I get on reverses depending on whether I am reading US or Acol sources.
If I have a strong hand - say 17 points, partner responds at the 1 level, and I would need to jump in order to reverse (needs 19 points as I am pushing the bidding to the 3 level, how do I show my partner the strength of my hand on my rebid if a No Trump bid is not suitable?

---

Partner may only have 6 HCP and four iffy spades.

---

But he may be stronger and game might be on.

[wank]

1h-1s-3d isn't a reverse. jumping in a new, lower ranking suit, called a jump shift, is game forcing hence the requirement for 19 points (your 19 + the 6 part promised by responding = 25 required for 3NT with no fit. (later in the auction you might find you have a fit, but you will have to play game anyway so you need 25). if it was a higher ranking suit, you could reverse (forcing) so you wouldn't need to jump.

if you don't have enough to force to game and your suits are the wrong order for a reverse, you just make a simple rebid, 1.e. 1h-1s-2d. this just denies a game force, it doesn't deny 18 point points. partner should rarely pass here. most of the time he will go back to your first suit because you've shown 5 of them (yes you must have 5 of the first suit, even playing acol, because otherwise you would have a balanced hand and have opened or rebid no-trumps). he will do this even with more cards in the 2nd suit (e.g. 2-4) unless he is totally unplayable in the first, this is to keep the bidding open precisely because you may have considerable values or shape you've not yet been able to show yet. going back to the first suit when you have more cards in the 2nd is called false preference and is very common.

by the way, very weak hands with 3 card support are often better raising immediately. this is because in your example hand for partner, if the bidding goes 1h-1s-2d-2h, responder will normally only have 2 hearts, but the 3rd heart makes a huge difference to playing strength so opener won't know whether to try for game or not. you only lose out when opener is 44 in spades and hearts with a minimum - if opener is 45 you have an 8 card fit either way and if opener is has 4 spades with values to investigate/drive to game he can try 2S himself.

[helene_t]

Liversidge, on 2015-July-06, 02:44, said:

Could you explain why 1NT is right for this hand? With two doubletons it doesn't fit the standard guidelines. Is it because with 13 points you have to open but don't think the clubs are good enough to rebid after a 1♠ response.

Well the club suit is not terrible but still describing it as a balanced hand seems quite accurate. The fact that you have queens in both of your doubletons weigh into it. With a small doubleton I could understand 1♣ since it may be better to make partner declare. But with this hand you are happy to declare yourself.

A 1nt opening shows partner that you can tollerate all suits. If he transfer to spades you are no unhappy. If opps interfere over 1nt, you are happy for partner to bid a 6-card spades or diamonds at the 3-level. Or maybe double opps for penalties (if you play doubles for penalty).

Basically, if you tell partner straight away that you have a balanced 12-14 then partner will be well informed and can make a good decision no matter what opps do. At the same time, 1nt makes it more difficult for opps to bid.

[Cyberyeti]

5m4M22 hands seem to be treated as balanced often in some parts of the world, but UK Acol players tend to be initially taught that they're not. Neither approach is particularly right/wrong, it's just a matter of style.

[wank]

rebidding 5 card suits when partner hasn't shown many values is bad. if you have 5m and 4 hearts and partner responds in spades and you're too weak to reverse, you have no good rebid if you're the wrong range for 1NT. on the other hand, if you have spades, you can always rebid 1s or raise them. opening 5422 hands with 4 spades in no trumps is of considerably less value perforce than doing it with 4 hearts or 4 diamonds.

[Zelandakh]

On the subject of reverse strength, Mike goes into this a little in his stickied post on the subject. In Acol a reverse traditionally shows 5-4 and 16+ or a more distributional hand of equivalent playing strength, sometimes called a weak reverse. On the other side of The Pond, many have a higher minimum, a strong reverse. In 2/1 auctions after a game force is already established, many remove the strength requirements for a reverse altogether, using some alternative method to sort out the matter of strength later on in the auction.

In the competitive auction, I think the simplest way of playing in Acol is the so-called competitive double. In this style, the reverse keeps its standard meaning while a double is usually a weaker hand that wants to contest the part score. I say usually because you also include some strong but awkward hands here, such as a big balanced hand with a small doubleton in their suit. A competitive double is thus essentially just a form of take out double.

If you were to play a double instead as extra values then I think it is right to play 2♥ as a form of negative free bid - a weak hand with natural hearts and a second place to play (either secondary spade support or long clubs) - as otherwise we have lots of ways of showing extras but no way of competing. I do not know anyone that does this though and the competitive double approach is the one I recommend to B/I players.

[msjennifer]

double here (Over opps 2D)is normally a support double showing a 3 card fit for partners suit.2H is not a reverse but shows a two suiter with 5 losers and no 3 card support for partners suit.3H will be the reverse forced by opponents 2D bid.

[wank]

msjennifer, on 2015-July-06, 06:22, said:

double here (Over opps 2D)is normally a support double showing a 3 card fit for partners suit.2H is not a reverse but shows a two suiter with 5 losers and no 3 card support for partners suit.3H will be the reverse forced by opponents 2D bid.

obviously this is rubbish, even if the OP did play support doubles, which he doesn't.

[blackshoe]

Cyberyeti, on 2015-July-06, 05:36, said:

5m4M22 hands seem to be treated as balanced often in some parts of the world, but UK Acol players tend to be initially taught that they're not. Neither approach is particularly right/wrong, it's just a matter of style.

Way I learned it, a hand with a singleton, or a void, or three doubletons, is unbalanced. A hand with no singleton or void and two doubletons is semi-balanced, and a hand with no singleton or void and at most one doubleton is balanced. IOW the balanced distributions are 4-3-3-3, 4-4-3-2, and 5-3-3-2, the semi-balanced are 5-4-2-2 and 6-3-2-2, and anything else is unbalanced. Also balanced hands should bid NT ASAP, unless a major suit fit is found, and unbalanced hands should do so only as a last resort. Semi-balanced hands, well, it depends. I tend to treat them as unbalanced, unless my high cards are concentrated in the short suits.

[dave_beer]

A reverse is a bid which forces simple preference at a level higher than the preferred suit could have been rebid. It is a matter or partnership agreement as to whether or not the reverse promises extra values and/or shape.

In most modern systems reverses in non-forcing auctions promise both extra values and shape, typically also promising that opener will rebid unless responder bids game. After a response at the two-level, the reverse may not promise either extra values and after 1♦-2♣ may not promise extra shape.

In competitive auctions I think you still need extra values but should promise a rebid only if opener could have rebid his first below the level of the reverse. So after 1♣-P-1♦-1♠, 2♥ promises a rebid since opener could have bid 2♣ instead of 2♥; but after 1♣-P-1♥-2♦, 2♠ is a reverse but doesn't promise a rebid.

[Liversidge]

I have looked up 'competitive doubles' and if my original hand had 16+ points such a double would have been a good bid, showing a hand where we have the majority of the points and I would have bid 1NT after the RHO overcall I did not have good stops in the opponents' suit.
One post referred to a support double and from what I can gather it shows 3 card support for responder's suit after a RHO overcall. I guess this means that you can't play both types of double and have to agree which one you will play.

[nekthen]

Agree with those who say open 1N. I would with 2524 and the right values, but not with 54 in the majors.
After 1♣ -(P) - 1♠ - (2♦)
2♥ is still a reverse, but values may be shaded
A double would show 3 card spade support

[guinnypoo]

Liversidge, on 2015-July-05, 12:05, said:

Or maybe not! On reflection the negative double is made by responder, so I don't think it applies here.

Edit: Didn't read half the thread, looks like support doubles were already mentioned, nothing to see here...