[MickyB]

Hannie, on Jul 11 2005, 07:22 PM, said:

I know you are a sound opener when playing 2/1 hrothgar, but this really isn't a minimum! Can you really construct a minimum where slam is good?

Presumably Richard would expect his partner to pass 3♦ with the weakest hands with 4 card support?

[Double !]

[quote name='MickyB' date='Jul 11 2005, 01:24 PM'] [quote name='Hannie' date='Jul 11 2005, 07:22 PM'] I know you are a sound opener when playing 2/1 hrothgar, but this really isn't a minimum! Can you really construct a minimum where slam is good?

I thought he just did. (a minimum for bidding 3H directly)

Here's another one, albeit somewhat unlikely: x, AQxx, Ax, KJxxxx

I assert that the 4C bid does not necessarily need to show much slam interest at this point in the auction. And, is it clear that this is necessarily your side's hand? The Opps are Vul, P has show clubs and hearts: opps have mucho diamonds, and where are the spades? Whatcha gonna do in the very unlikely event that opps bid 4S or 5D at this vul.? Showing P where your cards lay might turn out to be very beneficial.

[mike777]

Double !, on Jul 11 2005, 01:41 PM, said:

Here's another one, albeit somewhat unlikely:  x, AQxx, Ax, KJxxxx

With Richard's example hand open 1nt..so that is out.
With this example hand bid 4h not 3h so this one is out.

Lawrence says 3H may be around:
XXX=AJX=AX=KQ9XX

[hrothgar]

MickyB, on Jul 11 2005, 09:24 PM, said:

Hannie, on Jul 11 2005, 07:22 PM, said:

I know you are a sound opener when playing 2/1 hrothgar, but this really isn't a minimum! Can you really construct a minimum where slam is good?

Presumably Richard would expect his partner to pass 3♦ with the weakest hands with 4 card support?

Mike has touched on the crux of the matter...

What is the appropriate "minimum" hand for a 3H bid on the auction in question...
More importantly, is partner obligated to bid 3H holding any weak NT and 4 card Heart support?

As Jillybean points out, partner's 1H bid only promises 4 card support.
Styles that force a 3H bid holding

S Kxx
H Kxxx
D xx
C AQxx

Don't seem sound.

I suspect that the 3D bidder would be able to exploit this element of the system...

[hrothgar]

Hannie, on Jul 11 2005, 09:22 PM, said:

>I know you are a sound opener when playing 2/1 hrothgar, but this really isn't a minimum!
>Can you really construct a minimum where slam is good?

As I noted earlier, I don't think that partner should bid 3H on any random 12 count with 4 card Heart support. Here's the weakest hand that I think has reasonable play for slam

S A
H AQxx
D xx
C QJxxxx

>Wasn't it Hamman's partner who said "don't play me for the perfect hand, I never have it".

I don't recall who coined that turn of phrase (I've definitely seen it before). Regardless...
There are a number of stronger hands equally consistant with 3H where slam is also reasonable

[Double !]

MickyB, on Jul 11 2005, 01:24 PM, said:

Presumably Richard would expect his partner to pass 3♦ with the weakest hands with 4 card support?

yes
i would unless i have GB2NT available (not at the 3-level, unfortunately) or have agreed on some kind of equivalent over opps 3D. Remember, all responder has shown so far was 6+ pts and 4 unknown hearts. If playing dbl of 3D is heart game try, then I would not bid 4C. But, at this point, without the meaning of dbl clearly defined in BBO Adv., I'll bid.

[luke warm]

i voted 4♥ also

[HeartA]

4♥ as well.

[whereagles]

P_Marlowe, on Jul 11 2005, 04:25 PM, said:

4H, we play IMP's, wtp ?

Ditto. I have no clue whether game makes it or not. So I just bid it

[mike777]

whereagles, on Jul 11 2005, 08:54 PM, said:

P_Marlowe, on Jul 11 2005, 04:25 PM, said:

4H, we play IMP's, wtp ? 

Ditto. I have no clue whether game makes it or not. So I just bid it

So far partner cannot have any of these example hands in my style. The problem is Partner has bid 3h thinking we have:
XXXX=ATXXX=X=KXX and we have more.

[Winstonm]

mike777, on Jul 11 2005, 09:20 PM, said:

whereagles, on Jul 11 2005, 08:54 PM, said:

P_Marlowe, on Jul 11 2005, 04:25 PM, said:

4H, we play IMP's, wtp ? 

Ditto. I have no clue whether game makes it or not. So I just bid it

So far partner cannot have any of these example hands in my style. The problem is Partner has bid 3h thinking we have:
XXXX=ATXXX=X=KXX and we have more.

Not much more - on the bidding this hand is about the same as:
J9xx
K10xxx
x
Axx.

Sorry, but I can't get slammish on this hand or the one with the wastepaper diamond King. 4H and hope we make it.

WinstonM

[pclayton]

Pass.

First of all, I object to 1H. What's wrong with a negative double? And 1H only promises 4 - I think we've gone round the horn on this one.

This is a matter of style, but I will support pard with a minimum hand and 4 hearts. Double is maximal (why shouldn't it be?) showing a hand that would have bid 3H had their been no interference. 3H should a hand like: xx, AKxx, xx, KJxxx, to Kxx, Axxx, xx, KQxx on the low end to: Axx, AKxx, xx, Kxxx on the high end. Double shows a hand like: x, AKxx, Qxx, KQxxx or xx, AKxx, Ax, KQxxx.

Opposite the minimum hand with 4 trump, how are we going to manufacture 10 tricks on any of these hands?

If we have the explicit understanding that 3H promises extras then I'll try 4H. Trying for slam on this hand is imcomprehensible. Put me down for my usual 30

[pclayton]

Well ok move that KH in pards hand to a black Q where I used it in the example hands.

[P_Marlowe]

mike777, on Jul 11 2005, 09:20 PM, said:

whereagles, on Jul 11 2005, 08:54 PM, said:

P_Marlowe, on Jul 11 2005, 04:25 PM, said:

4H, we play IMP's, wtp ? 

Ditto. I have no clue whether game makes it or not. So I just bid it

So far partner cannot have any of these example hands in my style. The problem is Partner has bid 3h thinking we have:
XXXX=ATXXX=X=KXX and we have more.

Hi Mike,

we have more, but 3H may be a bid under pressure,
i.e. opener may hold only a 2 1/2 raise, or just a single
raise.

In contrast to hrothgar and Double I would expect my
partner to raise with the slightest excues, not with dead
minimum, but the difference is sometimes hard to tell.
in other words 4H may be a contract with no play, but we
play IMP's.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[helene_t]

pclayton, on Jul 12 2005, 06:54 AM, said:

Pass.

First of all, I object to 1H. What's wrong with a negative double? And 1H only promises 4 - I think we've gone round the horn on this one.

This is a matter of style, but I will support pard with a minimum hand and 4 hearts. Double is maximal (why shouldn't it be?) showing a hand that would have bid 3H had their been no interference.

Pass is reasonable. I voted 4♥ though. I agree that this hand should start with dbl.

I'm not sure if a dbl of 3♦ would have showed 4-card heart support. I think not. What are you supposed to do with a ballanced 18-19, 3-card support and no diamond stopper?

[ochinko]

I voted for pass too, although my first impulse was to bid 4H. I just hate that wasted DK. If I had Dx instead, and those 3 points were elsewhere, then 4H would be a no brainer.

Had I been vulnerable, I'd push to a game.

Petko

[Walddk]

Interesting. Some envisage slam, others pass. Is it a 3 or 6 hand then? I don't think so, but you will see in due time.

Roland

[bearmum]

I voted for 4♥ too many things could go wrong if I bid anything else

[ochinko]

bearmum, on Jul 12 2005, 12:27 PM, said:

I voted for 4♥ too many things could go wrong if I bid anything else

Not that bidding 4H is wrong, but just some points against it, because it seems that there's an overwhelming majority in favor of a heart game:

1. If we don't count the DK, we have a mere 8 points, and we already bid them.

2. Opps' stronger hand is behind the stronger hand in our line.

3. The lead is from their weaker hand.

4. Ruffing their diamonds occurs in the master hand.

Since we are not vulnerable 4H made, not bid, loses 6 IMPs, 3H made, 4 bid, gains 5. Pretty close if you don't consider a slam. In a tourney it would matter very much what we need to score in order to pick a choice.

Petko

[helene_t]

Is it thinkable that partner could be 4315? Maybe 3♠ is an option, too.