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5nt?

#1 User is offline   mike777 

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Posted 2009-July-13, 11:34

What is the standard usage of 5nt here, ty in advance.

Assume Jacoby and Texas transfers are played.


2nt=3h
3s=5nt?
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#2 User is offline   vuroth 

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Posted 2009-July-13, 11:36

Does 5♠, 16HCP make sense?

You pose a good question.
Still decidedly intermediate - don't take my guesses as authoritative.

"gwnn" said:

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#3 User is offline   jdonn 

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Posted 2009-July-13, 11:39

Choice of slams between spades and notrump. That is 100% standard and should be unanimous.
Please let me know about any questions or interest or bug reports about GIB.
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#4 User is offline   vuroth 

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Posted 2009-July-13, 11:57

Choice of grands, I assume?
Still decidedly intermediate - don't take my guesses as authoritative.

"gwnn" said:

rule number 1 in efficient forum reading:
hanp does not always mean literally what he writes.
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#5 User is offline   jdonn 

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Posted 2009-July-13, 11:58

vuroth, on Jul 13 2009, 12:57 PM, said:

Choice of grands, I assume?

Don't know if you are joking or serious :( It's a choice of small slams. There is no choice of grands bid.
Please let me know about any questions or interest or bug reports about GIB.
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#6 User is offline   vuroth 

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Posted 2009-July-13, 12:00

Believe me, you could fill an encyclopedia with all the standard treatments that I don't know.

Thanks.

V
Still decidedly intermediate - don't take my guesses as authoritative.

"gwnn" said:

rule number 1 in efficient forum reading:
hanp does not always mean literally what he writes.
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#7 User is offline   kenrexford 

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Posted 2009-July-13, 13:09

100% forcing.

100% inviting 6♠.

100% offering 6NT as alternative.

Arguable as to whether Opener can introduce any other call as an alternatuve strain. I think so. As Responder seems to be advertising a 5332 hand, I think Opener can bid any other suit (6♣, 6♦, 6♥) to offer that strain back.
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#8 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2009-July-13, 14:14

jdonn, on Jul 13 2009, 12:58 PM, said:

vuroth, on Jul 13 2009, 12:57 PM, said:

Choice of grands, I assume?

Don't know if you are joking or serious :( It's a choice of small slams. There is no choice of grands bid.

That is not true in all situations... 2N 5N is 'bid 6 or 7'... at least, that is the 'standard' treatment... Lawrence actually describes such an auction in one of his books... the one in which he describes playing matchpoints with him... his partner raised 1N to 5N, and he bid 7, only to find that his partner had meant only to invite 6.

On the auction given, however, I agree that 5N offers the choice between 6♠ and 6N
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#9 User is offline   jdonn 

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Posted 2009-July-13, 14:41

mikeh, on Jul 13 2009, 03:14 PM, said:

jdonn, on Jul 13 2009, 12:58 PM, said:

vuroth, on Jul 13 2009, 12:57 PM, said:

Choice of grands, I assume?

Don't know if you are joking or serious :) It's a choice of small slams. There is no choice of grands bid.

That is not true in all situations... 2N 5N is 'bid 6 or 7'... at least, that is the 'standard' treatment... Lawrence actually describes such an auction in one of his books... the one in which he describes playing matchpoints with him... his partner raised 1N to 5N, and he bid 7, only to find that his partner had meant only to invite 6.

Um hehe, how is an invitation to a grand a choice of grands?
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#10 User is offline   Cascade 

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Posted 2009-July-13, 15:27

I am sure at some point quantitative 5NT invited grand slams.

Sensibly these are now normally and better played as offering a choice of slams.

I don't know how exactly what is standard for how we invite grands anymore.
Wayne Burrows

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#11 User is offline   jdonn 

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Posted 2009-July-13, 16:27

1NT - 5NT and 2NT - 5NT still invite 7NT. It may be harder on other auctions.
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#12 User is offline   Cascade 

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Posted 2009-July-13, 16:50

jdonn, on Jul 14 2009, 10:27 AM, said:

1NT - 5NT and 2NT - 5NT still invite 7NT. It may be harder on other auctions.

Sure I was thinking of auctions where you introduced your major.
Wayne Burrows

I believe that the USA currently hold only the World Championship For People Who Still Bid Like Your Auntie Gladys - dburn
dunno how to play 4 card majors - JLOGIC
True but I know Standard American and what better reason could I have for playing Precision? - Hideous Hog
Bidding is an estimation of probabilities SJ Simon

#13 User is offline   karlson 

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Posted 2009-July-13, 17:27

I agree with everyone about the standard interpretation. But there's also the sequence

2n-3h
3s-6s

It seems that one of these should be a grand try, and I have to admit it seems slightly more intuitive for the 5n sequence to be the grand try with spades (analagous to transfer and then 4n).
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#14 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2009-July-13, 17:29

Everything Jdonn has said in his responses is how I thought it was for the past 40 to fifty years. But could there really be a choice of grands, via xfer then 6NT? If so, how would you know to ask the question?
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#15 User is offline   kenrexford 

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Posted 2009-July-13, 19:22

NT-Texas-4M-5NT?

That one is weirder. GSF is idiotic as an interpretation, as Responder cannot have enough opposite a NT opening, IMO, for GSF to make sense. Sure, there's a hand...
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#16 User is offline   vuroth 

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Posted 2009-July-13, 19:42

It was indeed the presence of quantitative 5NT that was getting me confused.
Still decidedly intermediate - don't take my guesses as authoritative.

"gwnn" said:

rule number 1 in efficient forum reading:
hanp does not always mean literally what he writes.
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#17 User is offline   Mbodell 

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Posted 2009-July-14, 00:57

So playing both Jacoby and Texas we have the following sequences:

1. 2nt-3♥
3♠-6♠

2. 2nt-3♥
3♠-5nt

3. 2nt-4♥
4♠-6♠

4. 2nt-4♥
4♠-5nt

I think 4 should be choice between 6 and 7 with 6+ spades.
I think 3 should be to play with 6+ spades.
I think 1's analogous situation with a jacoby and then game bid is a mild invite, so it could be a mild invite to 7, but a more sensible meaning might well be 5 spades, pick between 6♠ and 6nt.
If you have that meaning then it seems like 2 (jacoby than 5nt) ought to be invite between 6 and 7 with 5 spades allowing for any of 6♠, 6nt, 7♠, and 7nt.

But without special discussion I'd take it as 5♠ and choose between 6♠ and 6nt.

The normal thing that gets weird is normally if we want to play a major we can bid game in a major over game in nt. Whereas once we get to slam we can't bid 6nt and allow partner to correct to 6♠ with 3+ spades.
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#18 User is offline   bill1157 

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Posted 2009-July-14, 13:18

jdonn, on Jul 13 2009, 12:39 PM, said:

Choice of slams between spades and notrump. That is 100% standard and should be unanimous.

But opener could bid a natural suit at the 6 level as a suggested slam?

Bill
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